Silly controller

In article ,
(Christopher C. Stacy) wrote:

Roy Smith writes:
(Christopher C. Stacy) wrote:

The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000
until established" contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted
IFR procedure), an altitude, and a clearance limit (landing Foobar
airport, or executing the published missed approach procedure). How
is that not an IFR clearance?

There is no clearance limit -- you're not cleared "to" anyplace. The IFR
version of the above would be:

"Cleared to the Foobar airport, cleared ILS 23 approach, maintain 2000
until established".

There's also no such thing as an "IFR procedure". There are "instrument
procedures". You can fly them VFR or IFR.

Yes. The question at hand is how the pilot and controller understand
whether the instrument procedure is being flown under IFR or VFR.

Well, the NorCal controller who fielded my request for cancelling IFR
and for multiple practice approaches certainly seemed to understand that
I was no longer IFR.

My belief is that if you receive and accept a clearance like:

"Cherokee 123 SQUAWK 5432, fly heading 090; CLEARED TO the
Foobar airport ILS 23 APPROACH via Init MAINTAIN 2000
UNTIL established on the localizer."

that you are have accepted an IFR clearance.

Indeed. And had I requested a pop-up I'd expect (and typically get)
exactly that sort of response. I often get a pop-up back from Stockton
(or Sacramento) just for the hell of it (it's good procedural practice),
so I'm not unfamiliar with the difference between that and a practice
approach....

This phraseology is
exactly the same instruction that you would be given near the end
your flight on an IFR flight plan.

This is where you're wrong -- at this point in the flight, I'll get
something like "Cessna 04E, 5 miles from JOTLY, right turn heading 230
maintain 2000 until established, cleared ILS 29R" or similar, usually
regardless of whether I'm on a practice approach, pop-up, or pre-filed
IFR flight plan. There's no clearance limit there...

It obviously has the syntax
of an IFR clearance: the words "cleared", a route (including even
a charted instrument procedure), an altitude, a beacon tracking code,
and a clearance limit (the airport). The only difference is the context
in which it was given. There is standard phraseology for ATC for the
specific situation of "practice approaches" to confirm that you are
going to operate under VFR, otherwise they issue an IFR clearance.
If you are a VFR flight and you ask for a "Practice Approach",
then ATC is supposed to issue the clearance with the magic words
"Maintain VFR", or else confusion may ensue.

Indeed, but that can be given very early on in the scheme of things,
especially when doing multiple practice approaches. I usually get the
"Maintain VFR..." bit when I first request (a) practice approach(es),
which might be some time before I actually get the clearance. On the way
back to Hayward under VFR flight following I got it many miles outside
SUNOL when I first requested the practice approach, quite some distance
before I was cleared for the (practice) localiser approach.


In the OP's scenario, confusion did ensue, because (according to his
recollection) the controller did not say "maintain VFR", and after
the approach was done and the pilot asked for flight following to
his home field, ATC advised him to "report when cancelling IFR".
There was some additional confusion here because the pilot asked
for "flight following", which is a radar service that you can receive
while operating under VFR. The pilot had never intended to ask for an
IFR clearance and was somewhat bewildered by ATC thinking he was IFR.

I think you have the OP's scenario horribly confused :-).

The original original point was that two Usenet posters (myself and
Robert) did the same approach, possibly on the same day, and both
practice approaches ended in them being asked to cancel IFR. NorCal's
usually pretty on-the-ball about this sort of thing, so both of us were
wondering whether NorCal dropped the ball, or whether there's been a
change in SOP for this sort of thing...

Hamish

...usually
regardless of whether I'm on a practice approach, pop-up, or pre-filed
IFR flight plan. There's no clearance limit there...

If you are on an IFR flight plan, you already have a clearance limit.
It was given to you when you got your clearance. "CLEARED TO FooBar
International via..." That doesn't get invalidated by an approach
clearance. If you are VFR, the approach clearance doesn't give you a
clearance limit, and thus does not make you IFR.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

...usually
regardless of whether I'm on a practice approach, pop-up, or pre-filed
IFR flight plan. There's no clearance limit there...

If you are on an IFR flight plan, you already have a clearance limit.
It was given to you when you got your clearance. "CLEARED TO FooBar
International via..." That doesn't get invalidated by an approach
clearance. If you are VFR, the approach clearance doesn't give you a
clearance limit, and thus does not make you IFR.

Indeed -- that's what we've been trying to tell the Other Guy (the
"there" up there referred to there being no clearance limit given in the
instructions you snipped).

Hamish