The Comair crash reminds me...

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
news
Years ago I was leaving Purdue
http://www.airnav.com/airport/LAF
before the tower opened. (I think I was headed to Hamfest with some
friends. I don't usually get airborne that early.)

As I taxied to runway 5 I heard the local turboprop commuter (Mesaba, I
think) call a taxi to runway 10. I was headed away from him so I didn't
see him until I turned to do my runup. When I finished my runup I
realized that he had followed me. I thought about saying something but
just then a controller jumped in and vectored the plane to runway 10.

I always wondered what would have happened if that controller hadn't
gotten there early and said something (and I'd kept my mouth shut).
Would they have made it off the 4226' runway (5/23)? They regularly
fly in and out of 10/28 (6600') so I suspect that they could perform a
standard takeoff on 5 even though they might not handle an engine loss
as gracefully.

I wonder how often this (almost) happens.

--kyler

It can happen and has happened and will happen again as long as pilots don't
remember to physically check the runway heading by glancing at the DG or
HSI, or even the magnetic compass EVERY time they line up for takeoff. This
should be an automatic reflex action for a pilot, especially at busy
airports where runways are 30 degrees or less apart in direction.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:


It can happen and has happened and will happen again as long as pilots
don't remember to physically check the runway heading by glancing at
the DG or HSI, or even the magnetic compass EVERY time they line up
for takeoff. This should be an automatic reflex action for a pilot,
especially at busy airports where runways are 30 degrees or less apart
in direction. Dudley Henriques

It really makes you wonder about the procedures on that China Airlines 747
that not only took of from a taxiway in 2002, but the taxiway was not even
beside the assigned runway.

Many times it's something very small or something omitted in a sequence that
can cause these accidents. Something as basic as a heading check for the
right runway can be lost in a last minute conversation between two pilots as
the airplane makes the turn from the taxiway to the takeoff position; a
sudden distraction; a last second joke; anything that breaks a normal habit
pattern.
Its SO easy!!!!!!!
DH

"James Robinson" wrote in message
.. .
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:


It can happen and has happened and will happen again as long as pilots
don't remember to physically check the runway heading by glancing at
the DG or HSI, or even the magnetic compass EVERY time they line up
for takeoff. This should be an automatic reflex action for a pilot,
especially at busy airports where runways are 30 degrees or less apart
in direction. Dudley Henriques

It really makes you wonder about the procedures on that China Airlines 747
that not only took of from a taxiway in 2002, but the taxiway was not even
beside the assigned runway.

Many times it's something very small or something omitted in a sequence that
can cause these accidents. Something as basic as a heading check for the
right runway can be lost in a last minute conversation between two pilots as
the airplane makes the turn from the taxiway to the takeoff position; a
sudden distraction; a last second joke; anything that breaks a normal habit
pattern.
Its SO easy!!!!!!!

It is... and my understanding is that's the reason for the sterile
cockpit rule. Incidentally, there was an off-duty pilot sitting in the
jumpseat in the cockpit along for the ride on the Comair flight.
Wouldn't surprise me if things got a little too relaxed that early in
the morning for just a brief moment.

--
Guy

Guy Elden Jr wrote:
Many times it's something very small or something omitted in a sequence that
can cause these accidents. Something as basic as a heading check for the
right runway can be lost in a last minute conversation between two pilots as
the airplane makes the turn from the taxiway to the takeoff position; a
sudden distraction; a last second joke; anything that breaks a normal habit
pattern.
Its SO easy!!!!!!!

It is... and my understanding is that's the reason for the sterile
cockpit rule. Incidentally, there was an off-duty pilot sitting in the
jumpseat in the cockpit along for the ride on the Comair flight.
Wouldn't surprise me if things got a little too relaxed that early in
the morning for just a brief moment.

Plus it was a 0600 flight, which meant awakening at around 0430.
With a muggy motel room listening to countless AC units hum, I
wonder what their sleep situation was ??

JG


--
Guy

In article .com,
wrote:

Plus it was a 0600 flight, which meant awakening at around 0430.
With a muggy motel room listening to countless AC units hum, I
wonder what their sleep situation was ??

Probably earlier. With a 45-minute "show" time", 15-minute shuttle ride,
arise/shower/shave/dress/pack/eat (30-minutes?) puts it closer to 4:00
AM.

Couple that with "what time did they get to sleep"?/"how much did they
get"? and the quality of sleep.
Check cell phone records.

wrote in message

Plus it was a 0600 flight, which meant awakening at around 0430.
With a muggy motel room listening to countless AC units hum, I
wonder what their sleep situation was ??

It was clearly reported shortly after the crash that their rest period had
been "well in excess of" the required amount. An 0430 wake up should not
be problematic for a flight crew - its normal. You just hit the rack by 8
or 9 PM. Same deal for 0200, or 2300 for that matter.

As to the picture you paint of shabby, low-grade accommodations, all I can
say is that its highly unlikely. Even 25-30 years ago flying regional, we
stayed in reasonable places such as Ramada, Hampton, or HI. A simple
search showed that within 5 miles or so of the field there are about 11
national name hotels that offer good reasonable quality, and very often free
stuff for flight crews, iirc. It would be very easy to ascertain exactly
where they stayed.

John Gaquin wrote:
wrote in message

Plus it was a 0600 flight, which meant awakening at around 0430.
With a muggy motel room listening to countless AC units hum, I
wonder what their sleep situation was ??

It was clearly reported shortly after the crash that their rest period had
been "well in excess of" the required amount. An 0430 wake up should not
be problematic for a flight crew - its normal. You just hit the rack by 8
or 9 PM. Same deal for 0200, or 2300 for that matter.

They were all out of town based according to news reports:

"Bornhorst would not say whether the crew had experience flying into
and out of the Blue Grass Airport. The first officer and flight
attendant had been based out of New York, the pilot out of
Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, according to the
airline.
Bornhorst did say that the crew was well rested and had spent the night
in Lexington in preparation for the early-morning takeoff."

You can hit the hay at 9pm, but falling asleep with motel noises is
another matter...JG


As to the picture you paint of shabby, low-grade accommodations, all I can
say is that its highly unlikely. Even 25-30 years ago flying regional, we
stayed in reasonable places such as Ramada, Hampton, or HI. A simple
search showed that within 5 miles or so of the field there are about 11
national name hotels that offer good reasonable quality, and very often free
stuff for flight crews, iirc. It would be very easy to ascertain exactly
where they stayed.

"Guy Elden Jr" wrote:

Incidentally, there was an off-duty pilot sitting in the
jumpseat in the cockpit along for the ride on the Comair flight.
Wouldn't surprise me if things got a little too relaxed that early in
the morning for just a brief moment.

The media reports have stated there was an off-duty pilot in the jumpseat,
but later reports say it was an AirTran pilot. I don't believe the
security rules, post 911, would allow him in the cockpit, so I suspect that
he was likely in the passenger compartment, and not in the jumpseat.

I took a freind up today and he asked how something like that can happen. My
answer was simple, their human.

Its SO easy!!!!!!!

It is... and my understanding is that's the reason for the sterile
cockpit rule. Incidentally, there was an off-duty pilot sitting in the
jumpseat in the cockpit along for the ride on the Comair flight.
Wouldn't surprise me if things got a little too relaxed that early in
the morning for just a brief moment.

--
Guy