The Comair crash reminds me...

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...

The Today Show this morning had a spot where an NTSB spokesperson said
"during the takeoff roll the flight crew noted that the lights were out
on the runway" then the voice over breaks in with "but the crew never
applied the brakes or radioed the tower. Instead the captain called out
'rotate' telling the first officer to pull up at the appropriate speed."

Was the tower active or was that comment from out of nowhere?


It's a full-time tower.



If it was active...well, was the plane really cleared for takeoff onto the
wrong
runway?


No, it was cleared for takeoff on the right runway, the flight crew
attempted takeoff on the wrong runway.

"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

If it was active...well, was the plane really cleared for takeoff onto the
wrong
runway?

No, it was cleared for takeoff on the right runway, the flight crew
attempted takeoff on the wrong runway.

So...how'd it go? Ground cleared the plane to taxi to the correct
runway, observed the plane go to the wrong runway, then tower cleared
the plane to depart the right runway, and observed it pull onto the
wrong runway. Anything like that?

I hope I'm missing something obvious. Was there dense fog involved?
Lots of other traffic?

--kyler

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...

So...how'd it go? Ground cleared the plane to taxi to the correct
runway, observed the plane go to the wrong runway, then tower cleared
the plane to depart the right runway, and observed it pull onto the
wrong runway. Anything like that?


Probably not. The runways are not far apart. You have to taxi past the
departure end of runway 26, the wrong runway, to reach the departure end of
runway 22, the right runway. I believe there was just one controller in the
tower.



I hope I'm missing something obvious. Was there dense fog involved?
Lots of other traffic?


The weather observation taken about 13 minutes prior showed six miles
visibility. I don't know if there was other traffic, but probably not a lot
on an early weekend morning.

Depending on the tower location, the angle might not allow
seeing the error, it is even possible the end of the runway
could be hidden behind a building. The controller has many
duties, watching an airplane taxi is not the highest
priority, getting the hand-off to Center, possible radio
contact with other airplanes, many things could be required.

Just looked at the airport diagram, the tower is located
with a clear view of runway 22 and 26 , if there are no
uncharted builds or trees. Still in the dark, lights alone
do not necessarily allow determination of enough details to
over come the expectation that they were on 22.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
in message
k.net...
|
| "Kyler Laird" wrote in message
| ...
|
| So...how'd it go? Ground cleared the plane to taxi to
the correct
| runway, observed the plane go to the wrong runway, then
tower cleared
| the plane to depart the right runway, and observed it
pull onto the
| wrong runway. Anything like that?
|
|
| Probably not. The runways are not far apart. You have to
taxi past the
| departure end of runway 26, the wrong runway, to reach the
departure end of
| runway 22, the right runway. I believe there was just one
controller in the
| tower.
|
|
|
| I hope I'm missing something obvious. Was there dense
fog involved?
| Lots of other traffic?
|
|
| The weather observation taken about 13 minutes prior
showed six miles
| visibility. I don't know if there was other traffic, but
probably not a lot
| on an early weekend morning.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message

Just looked at the airport diagram, the tower is located
with a clear view of runway 22 and 26 , if there are no
uncharted builds or trees.

The tower, end of 22, and end of 26 are pretty much in line. I think a
misposition might not be immediately obvious to the tower without a second,
closer look. Also, my sense is that even when the takeoff roll had started,
the angles are such that the roll might have to progress a certain distance
before a discrepency would become obvious to the tower, if they were
looking.

Yep, that is what I said, just because you can see, doesn't
mean you know what it is.
"John Gaquin" wrote in message
. ..
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
|
| Just looked at the airport diagram, the tower is located
| with a clear view of runway 22 and 26 , if there are no
| uncharted builds or trees.
|
| The tower, end of 22, and end of 26 are pretty much in
line. I think a
| misposition might not be immediately obvious to the tower
without a second,
| closer look. Also, my sense is that even when the takeoff
roll had started,
| the angles are such that the roll might have to progress a
certain distance
| before a discrepency would become obvious to the tower, if
they were
| looking.
|
|

I may sound like an idiot, but I have often wondered why there isn't a
system of red and green lights at taxiway and runway intersections. Driving
around unfamiliar airports at night is one of the hardest things I've done
in an airplane. It's hard to see the signage, there are no lights to speak
of, and trying to read taxiway diagrams with that feeble red cockpit light
is useless. Progressive isn't a lot better, at bigger airports it's like
getting directions from a New York taxicab driver.

How simple it would be see a line of green lights until until to get to red
one at the runway, which is turned green when you're cleared on the runway.
I understand there will be some thinking to do at bigger airports will
multiple simultaneous taxi operations, but I can't believe with a little
thought those problems couldn't be solved. If we limited it to just
intersections of runways with taxiways, it would be downright simple.

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
. ..

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message

Just looked at the airport diagram, the tower is located
with a clear view of runway 22 and 26 , if there are no
uncharted builds or trees.

The tower, end of 22, and end of 26 are pretty much in line. I think a
misposition might not be immediately obvious to the tower without a
second, closer look. Also, my sense is that even when the takeoff roll
had started, the angles are such that the roll might have to progress a
certain distance before a discrepency would become obvious to the tower,
if they were looking.

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:39:56 -0400, "LWG"
wrote:
How simple it would be see a line of green lights until until to get to red
one at the runway, which is turned green when you're cleared on the runway.
I understand there will be some thinking to do at bigger airports will
multiple simultaneous taxi operations, but I can't believe with a little
thought those problems couldn't be solved. If we limited it to just
intersections of runways with taxiways, it would be downright simple.

And you've never had a problem with traffic lights in the city where
you are located?

"LWG" wrote in message news:9-

.... It's hard to see the signage, there are no lights to speak of, and
trying to read taxiway diagrams with that feeble red cockpit light is
useless.

So turn up the lights so you can see the diagram.

Kyler Laird wrote:



So...how'd it go? Ground cleared the plane to taxi to the correct
runway, observed the plane go to the wrong runway, then tower cleared
the plane to depart the right runway, and observed it pull onto the
wrong runway. Anything like that?

Nope. One guy in the tower. The FAA has already admitted that they
broke their own rules by having only one controller staffed when the
policy requires a minimum of two at all times, at all facilities. They
will probably hang the tower manager as a scapegoat.