Midair near Minden

Fred wrote:
What soaring pilots have been talking about for some time has happened.
Yesterday, in startling clear weather, with visibility measured in
dozens of miles or more, a Hawker jet ran into a sailplane at about
13,500' (5,000' AGL or more) some 10 miles east of Minden airport. The
sailplane pilot had come from Japanto enjoy several days of the world's
very best soaring. He was not disappointed: he towed into the air
around 1:00 p.m. and flew with several other pilots some fifty or so
miles south. The group of sailplane pilots was just returning to
Minden several hours later, talking to each other on the radio, when
they noticed the Japanese pilot was no longer answering their calls.

Shortly thereafter a Hawker jet landed at Carson City with pieces of a
sailplane wing embedded into its nose. The Hawker pilot said he had
hit a glider about 40 miles south. Local search and rescue groups were
called out and the sailplane wreckage was found on the east slope of
the Pine Nuts around 6:00 p.m. A LifeFlight helicopter was flying
through the area (totally unrelated to this search) and headed for the
wreckage. He saw a parachute on the ground and set down near that.
The pilot was not in the parachute, so all of us following the search
on radios on the ground figured the pilot was walking out. Sure
enough, he was found just before 7:00 p.m., walking out with minor cuts
and bruises.

This story ended with lots of sighs of relief but it could have been a
real tragedy. This was a totally VFR situation, where see and be seen
should have been in effect. I don't know yet what equipment the
sailplane had on board, but I know it was a very recently built plane.
The sailplane pilot was experienced and in good physical shape.

I don't know anything about the Hawker crew or what the NTSB will find
about their operation. My fear, though, is that the talking heads who
form much of Americans' opinions will start speaking out about the lack
of sophisticated equipment on board the sailplane. You know the kind:
"if that glider had an encoding transponder on it, this never would
have happened."

When you hear that, please point out to the speaker that the sailplane
pilot was following all the regulations, was flying in great visibility
near an airport that is maked on sectionals with a glider symbol and is
known worldwide for its fantastic soaring, and that the Hawker ran into
the saiplane, not the other way around.

And then offer up a little prayer that this won't happen again soon --
or to anyone you know. Fred

First of all...I am extremely glad everybody involved in that accident
is alive. Second, something will come out of this, I just have a bad
feeling; I don't think that the FAA or NTSB will mandate any new
regulations, I am worrying about the reaction of the local airport mgr.
and his accomplices to curb soaring in Minden even more or maybe
completely ban it. I really hope it will not happen....

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

I hope so too Jacek. I have some thoughts to add. Thank god, everone
walked away! They all need to get together and eat, drink, and be
merry, and celebrate and forget this official crap for a day or two.

At our club here in north Texas, we have had an ongoing relationship
with the Tracon/atc folks.

We have to, because over the years the airspace grab has been ongoing,
up to the point that the Class B was about to be over our heads. As of
today the south end of Class B is still north of us, only because we
met with those who own that chunk of airspace.

The KNEAD 5 IFR arrival still puts a never ending stream of 250 knot
machines zipping over our field, between 5000msl and 4000msl, when DAL
is in a north flow. TSA has some pretty good soaring days with a north
wind. Our prevailing wind is from the south thank goodness.

We now have an agreed upon system to keep relationships with all
parties happy when the wind blows from the north. It includes a phone
call directly to tracon on north flow days, before the start of flying.
The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region? It has been
added to the KNEAD 5 arrival chart for Dallas Love. The other item is
the Luv field ATIS has mention of glider operations when we are in a
north flow. This a result of meetings with the tracon and faa folks.

In one meeting quite a number of years ago, I was on our club airspace
committee. This was about the time the four corner posts of DFW
airspace were being pushed out. At this meeting which was set up for
our benefit, the attendees were the guys from Tracon, the Faa, and some
pilots and ops guys from a Luv field based airline. The Faa, and Tracon
guys had their sleeves rolled and were ready to work with us. Maps were
out on the table, everybody was writing and talking. It was
productive.

The head ops/chief pilot guy from the airline, at about the middle of
the meeting, blurts out " why don't we just shut them down". Meaning
shut down the glider operation! He wasn't kidding either. Fortunately
the tracon guys, and the faa folks explained to the airline official
that he didn't own the sky. Today, we have some of his guys enjoying
that same airspace with us flying gliders.

I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a xponder either. I'd rather
ease tensions by working with those who can help us in these matters.
It does no good to sit here and go on and on about what the public
thinks. Let's outsmart the public, and keep flying.

With regard to this accident, the final verdict may be a short
investigation, and both crews come out blameless. Might happen, they
both appear to have been doing everything right. They just happen to
meet in the same piece of air. Some are wondering about the jet crew. I
guarantee you the NTSB will ask all the questions and listen to the
tapes for sounds of head down at the time of collision. The glider crew
will answer the same questions. Were both crews fingering their FMSs',
PDA's, noses, and no one looking out at the scenery? We will know.

Yes, and we, soaring, will be scurtinized. I have no idea what
agreements the local Nevada soaring folks have established with the
keepers of the airspace, but, now would be a good time to make the
first move. Again, with all due respect, these things the Nevada folks
may have done.

snoop


First of all...I am extremely glad everybody involved in that accident
is alive. Second, something will come out of this, I just have a bad
feeling; I don't think that the FAA or NTSB will mandate any new
regulations, I am worrying about the reaction of the local airport mgr.
and his accomplices to curb soaring in Minden even more or maybe
completely ban it. I really hope it will not happen....

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

snoop wrote:
snip
The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region?

Good point about getting the glider symbol on the IFR charts. Most jet
jocks use these almost exclusively. The more we do to raise awareness
the better.

Another way to raise awareness of glider trafiic is to make Pireps. I
try to do this at least once on every good soaring day, especially if
there is wave. Report your aircraft type as simply a Glider (nobody
else will know or care what make/model you are flying). You can just
report clear and 50 mi visibility, or give detailed (and useful) info
on cloud layers and winds aloft. Pireps get wide dissemination to
pilots, ATC and dispatchers, so this is a good way to remind them that
we are out there too. Glider pilots who also fly commercially will
appreciate hearing your Pirep when they are working (try to make them
as jealous as possible by reporting from the top of the climb!). You
can give Pireps to Flight Watch on 122.0 MHz, or you can contact a FSS
or ATC facility on a discrete frequency. Check the AIM for more info on
Pireps.

Another thing you can do is to get VFR flight following if you have a
transponder. Again, just give your aircraft type as a Glider. This lets
pilots and controllers in the section know we are out there. It also
gets you a discrete transponder code. Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

I know a lot of glider pilots like to stay out of the system. But out
of sight is out of mind.

Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

And many (most?) glider pilots flying in the Minden area squak 0440
rathern than 1200. There's a letter of agreement in place with Reno ATC
that permits gliders to use 0440 as a way of telling ATC that the
aircraft is a glider. This eliminates the need for more radio chatter
and could make their filtering easier, assuming they can filter based on
the codes.

Jeremy

My understanding is that the 1200 filter is used more often than not,
but that may be specific to the Northeast US where I fly. Controllors
who think they are busy can activate it to reduce their work load.
Corollers are only reposible for IFR-IFR traffic separation, and are
not required to report VFR traffic, even with a transponder. IFR pilots
in VMC are still responsible for see and avoid.

It is good that you have 0440 assigned for Gliders with Reno. There are
a similar patchwork of agreements with other centers. I think
Philadelphia approach uses 1202 for towplanes. There are various codes
for Baloons and Airships too, which may be in conflict between areas.
What we really need is a national set of these used universally.

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

And many (most?) glider pilots flying in the Minden area squak 0440
rathern than 1200. There's a letter of agreement in place with Reno ATC
that permits gliders to use 0440 as a way of telling ATC that the
aircraft is a glider. This eliminates the need for more radio chatter
and could make their filtering easier, assuming they can filter based on
the codes.

Jeremy

Doug Haluza wrote:
snoop wrote:
snip
The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region?

Good point about getting the glider symbol on the IFR charts. Most jet
jocks use these almost exclusively. The more we do to raise awareness
the better.

Another way to raise awareness of glider trafiic is to make Pireps. I
try to do this at least once on every good soaring day, especially if
there is wave. Report your aircraft type as simply a Glider (nobody
else will know or care what make/model you are flying). You can just
report clear and 50 mi visibility, or give detailed (and useful) info
on cloud layers and winds aloft. Pireps get wide dissemination to
pilots, ATC and dispatchers, so this is a good way to remind them that
we are out there too. Glider pilots who also fly commercially will
appreciate hearing your Pirep when they are working (try to make them
as jealous as possible by reporting from the top of the climb!). You
can give Pireps to Flight Watch on 122.0 MHz, or you can contact a FSS
or ATC facility on a discrete frequency. Check the AIM for more info on
Pireps.

Another thing you can do is to get VFR flight following if you have a
transponder. Again, just give your aircraft type as a Glider. This lets
pilots and controllers in the section know we are out there. It also
gets you a discrete transponder code. Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

I know a lot of glider pilots like to stay out of the system. But out
of sight is out of mind.

Doug:

Clearly my article in the July issue of SOARING on transponders fell
shy of the mark I had hoped to hit as far as educating glider pilots
regarding transponders.
There are four symbols generated by ATC computers for transponder
equipped aircraft. One: transponder, no encoder, non discrete, (like
the basic VFR squwak of 1200.) Two: transponder and encoder, non
discrete - again, like the basic VFR squwak of 1200. Three:
transponder, no encoder, (dam few of these out there any more),
discrete as in talking to ATC. and Four: transponder and encoder,
discrete. That is talking to or about to talk to ATC.
Each controller is required by virtue of the ATC handbook, (7110.65 and
the management handbook 7110.3), to display ALL transponder equipped
aircraft. What the controller does have the option to do is adjust the
filter limits at his scope to exclude the encoded altitude of aircraft
which are not in his assigned airspace.
Had the transponder been turned on by the pilot involved in the
mid-air, the jet would have seen the glider on it's TCAS, and ATC
would have been issuing the glider as traffic to the jet. In the Reno
area, most glider pilots are squawking an non discrete code which
indicates to ATC that they are a glider.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Doug Haluza wrote:
In the Reno
area, most glider pilots are squawking an non discrete code which
indicates to ATC that they are a glider.


If you are saying that most glider pilots in the Reno area have
transponders, I disagree. If you are saying that those who do have Xponders
squawk 0440, I concur.

I fly out of Minden and have both a transponder and a TPAS. The majority of
glider traffic I acquire visually do not show up on my TPAS at all.

I would say no more than 50% (and it's probably closer to 30%) of gliders
have transponders and are squawking.

bumper