Glider Crash - Minden?

Derek, I am not advocating mode S transponder (which I couldn't efford
one either ), it is doing nothing to improve safety then mode C,which
should cost around 2K in the US, no more then a flight computer.
I absolutly agree, Flarm or ADS-B are far better, but it may take
another generation until it will be widely implemented, especially in
the US. Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy

Derek Copeland wrote:
We are having a battle in the UK to stop the CAA (Civil
Aviation Authority, otherwise known as the 'Campaign
Against Aviation') enforcing the mandatory carriage
of Mode S transponders in all aircraft, which includes
gliders. The basic bit of kit costs about £1600 plus
fitting by an 'approved' organisation and Value Added
Tax (17.5%). In total we estimate this will cost at
least £3000+ per glider, with additional ongoing servicing
and licencing costs. Then there are all the extra batteries
that we will have to carry if we want to fly for more
than about 3 hours, which will have to come out of
our permitted MAUW. The fittings for the extra batteries
may have to have design approval by EASA, which is
another major cost.

Although transponders work perfectly well in IMC conditions,
they are also trying to impose strict VMC conditions
on gliding.

You may have enough money to fit and run a Mode S transponder
Ramy, but many private owners of older sailplanes do
not. An airworthy wooden gliders can be picked up for
£3k or less in the UK. Even for club owned gliders,
this proposal would significantly increase the cost
of flying gliders.

Most collisions involving gliders are with other gliders
in thermals or on ridges, or with GA or military aircraft.
Mode S transponders do little or nothing to address
this problem. Hence we are being asked to pay large
sums of money for protecting Commercial Airliners that
wish to take short cuts through Class G airspace, without
any benefits to us. Speaking personally I would be
less hostile to fitting ADS-B or FLARM systems, which
are cheaper, less power hungry and are of some benefit
to glider pilots in detecting other aircraft. Otherwise
we should expect all pilots to keep a good lookout
when flying in Class G.

Derek Copeland


At 05:00 29 August 2006, Ramy Yanetz wrote:
A miracle. Did the ASG 29 used a transponder? Assuming
not, I am wondering
if he could not afford one...
This is not good as there are elections going on in
NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to
make the skies
safer!!
Maybe by enforcing the use of transponders in the Reno
area? I don't see a
problem with that...

Ramy

wrote in message
oups.com...
Rumor control here...

Challenger 800X with 5 on board on route to Reno from
San Diego
collided with an ASG29 around 16,000ft east on Minden
on the Pinenut
mountains.

The Jet landed gear up at Carson City the pilot sustaining
minor
injuries in the initial impact.

The Glider Pilot bailed and landed ok.

Look at KRNV.com or RGJ.com for more info.

This is not good as there are elections going on in
NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to
make the skies
safer!!

Later

Al


Mitch wrote:
Heard there may have been a glider - biz jet crash
in Minden? True or
False?

-EX

Ramy wrote:
Derek, I am not advocating mode S transponder (which I couldn't efford
one either ), it is doing nothing to improve safety then mode C,which
should cost around 2K in the US, no more then a flight computer.

Double that figure, and you'll have a more typical installed cost in the
US, particularly in a type certified glider. A transponder installation
is a different kettle of fish from a glide computer, a 337 is often
required...

Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy, what if the collision had been between an older Learjet, not
equipped with TCAS, and not talking to ATC (in the process of being
handed off, talking to FSS, or just tooling around VFR. Transponders
would be totally useless in preventing the midair.

Remember, unless equipped with TCAS (big jets) or an IFF interrogator
(many military fighters), or talking to the controlling agency that is
actually watching you and your transponder, it's not going to do any
good. It is absolutely no good at preventing VFR - VFR midairs.

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

If I was going to get up in the flight levels with my glider (no
thanks, I happen to like my old gelcoat, thankyou!) I would seriously
consider a transponder. Also an attitude indicator!. Down lower, if
traffic is an issue, then I'm leaning towards some kind of TPAS - like
device. I'm waiting for one with a good aural cue (I think there is
one out now). Any comments from current TPAS users out there?

Kirk
66

Kirk, I happen to be also a TPAS user. I am using the Monroy, which
gives you warning for nearby transponder equipped aircraft. All it does
actually is alerting you to scan for traffic when there is traffic
nearby. It doesn't tell you where it is though, but for $500 I think it
worth it. There is now a better unit offered on Wings and Wheels
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
Installation is not much of an issue, since those units are so small
you can stick them to the glare shield as I do. Just make sure to buy
one with voice alerts as you noted, as you would not notice the leds
during day time when your eyes are focused outside.

Ramy


kirk.stant wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy, what if the collision had been between an older Learjet, not
equipped with TCAS, and not talking to ATC (in the process of being
handed off, talking to FSS, or just tooling around VFR. Transponders
would be totally useless in preventing the midair.

Remember, unless equipped with TCAS (big jets) or an IFF interrogator
(many military fighters), or talking to the controlling agency that is
actually watching you and your transponder, it's not going to do any
good. It is absolutely no good at preventing VFR - VFR midairs.

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

If I was going to get up in the flight levels with my glider (no
thanks, I happen to like my old gelcoat, thankyou!) I would seriously
consider a transponder. Also an attitude indicator!. Down lower, if
traffic is an issue, then I'm leaning towards some kind of TPAS - like
device. I'm waiting for one with a good aural cue (I think there is
one out now). Any comments from current TPAS users out there?

Kirk
66

kirk.stant wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy, what if the collision had been between an older Learjet, not
equipped with TCAS, and not talking to ATC (in the process of being
handed off, talking to FSS, or just tooling around VFR.

Do they actually do that? And why would they want to, as long as they
had radar coverage? I'm having a hard time imagining a professional jet
pilot flying around at 300 knots that wouldn't want to be talking to
ATC, especially with passengers.

I'm not questioning your advice on TPAS units, just wondering how likely
your scenario is. The TPAS units would also work with the average
Cessna, which is certainly doesn't have TCAS, and even more likely to be
without ATC contact.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

I've just started flying with a Mode C transponder and have been
alerted a couple of times of approaching traffic when it started
replying to frequent interrogations. I was able to locate these
aircraft visually. Clearly an alert system would be an inexpensive and
valuable asset.

Having the right of way in a glider is about as useful as having right
of way in a sailboat when you're about to be run over by a mega
container ship (which has also happened to me). Large aircraft (and
vessels) just might not see you and, even if they do, can't avoid you
becasue of their mass and speed. I'd just like to steer clear of
conflict, which includes alerting others to my presence and learning
about theirs.

Good grief, there are still folks in the USA (including some well-known
glider FBOs) that fly without radios, let alone transponders.

Mike

Flarm is, Flarm to Flarm. Up to now it is mainly fitted to gliders,
practically universal in the European Alps, and widely fitted in Australia.
In the Swiss Alps it is also fitted to rescue helicopters, partly because of
its obstacle database.

ADS-B out can be read by ADS-B in.

In Australia they are working on the idea that an enhancement to ADS-B
could enable it to read Flarm, and an enhancement to Flarm could enable it
to read ADS-B.

This is why things may improve when Mode A/C and Mode S are phased out in
favour of ADS-B.

In Australia Flarm is built under licence (OzFlarm), there are other
licensees. Is there nobody interested in doing this in the USA ? It
would surely be ideal for any light aircraft. I understand that there is
an add-on to Flarm which can sound a signal in headphones.

Remember, Modes A/C and S are only transmitted when the Transponder is
triggered by an interrogation. Flarm and ADS-B transmit regularly without
having to be triggered.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
ups.com...


Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively affordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.


snip

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

snip

Kirk
66

Are there any low cost ADS-B units available?

Mike Schumann

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote in message
...
Flarm is, Flarm to Flarm. Up to now it is mainly fitted to gliders,
practically universal in the European Alps, and widely fitted in
Australia.
In the Swiss Alps it is also fitted to rescue helicopters, partly because
of
its obstacle database.

ADS-B out can be read by ADS-B in.

In Australia they are working on the idea that an enhancement to ADS-B
could enable it to read Flarm, and an enhancement to Flarm could enable it
to read ADS-B.

This is why things may improve when Mode A/C and Mode S are phased out in
favour of ADS-B.

In Australia Flarm is built under licence (OzFlarm), there are other
licensees. Is there nobody interested in doing this in the USA ? It
would surely be ideal for any light aircraft. I understand that there is
an add-on to Flarm which can sound a signal in headphones.

Remember, Modes A/C and S are only transmitted when the Transponder is
triggered by an interrogation. Flarm and ADS-B transmit regularly
without
having to be triggered.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
ups.com...


Ramy wrote:
Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively affordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.


snip

TPAS is a good solution, since it warns you of someone else tooling
around with his xponder on. ADS-B would be nice, if
affordable/practicable in a glider. FLARM is pretty much only
glider-to-glider, and requires active participation (and is a moot
point in the US anyway, at present).

snip

Kirk
66