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Must be nice to walk on water!
kirk.stant wrote: Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air to see from another aircraft approaching. So much for professional pilots looking out the window. If the glider had been cruising I could understand it. I've lost gliders I've been following when I knew where they were. But there is little excuse in a two-crew cockpit to miss something as substantial as an 18 meter glider thermalling in front of you! In the AF we called it clearing your flightpath. Everything else is secondary at jet speeds. Good job getting the jet and it's valuable pax back unharmed. Love the pic of the glider spar in the radome! But I would love to hear the crew admit they were heads-down at the time of the collision, if that is what really happened. Of course, I could be totally wrong - sun, bugs on the canopy, etc... And this assumes the glider was actually turning, of course. Well, it's better than trying to take off on the wrong runway, anyway... Check 6, guys! (and 9, and 3, and 12, and...) Kirk 66 |
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![]() snoop wrote: Must be nice to walk on water! Actually, it's the water into wine trick that really wows the crowd I hang with... No apologies - the bizjet should have seen the glider. The glider also should have seen the bizjet. There may be reasons why that didn't happen - and I'll be the first to admit I've been guilty of late detection of aircraft nearby. If I screw up, I've got no problem admitting it - there really isn't much room for ego where flight safety is concerned. But I also know from first hand that all this hysteria about closing speed is BS. Even jet fighters can be seen in time to avoid. Airliners are huge and almost impossible to miss. Bizjets fit in between. But you have to be looking. Kirk |
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#4
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![]() Stefan wrote: No. Yes. I've done it in fighters, light planes, and gliders. Dodged F-16s and AV-8Bs in Arizona for many years in my LS6. Of course, if you don't see it, for whatever reason, then yes it can hit you. If you were deaf, you could even get run over by a blimp! (except the shadow might warn you!). Worse case is getting run down from behind. It helps if you hear the fighters and throw up a wing so they see you (done that too - it worked just fine). You do have to be willing to move your glider around to look all around when you suspect there is someone in your blind spot. I'll keep on looking out the window instead of fiddling with my PDA. Cheers, Kirk 66 |
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kirk.stant wrote:
Stefan wrote: No. Yes. I've done it in fighters, light planes, and gliders. Dodged F-16s and AV-8Bs in Arizona for many years in my LS6. Of course, if you don't see it, for whatever reason, then yes it can hit you. If you were deaf, you could even get run over by a blimp! (except the shadow might warn you!). Worse case is getting run down from behind. It helps if you hear the fighters and throw up a wing so they see you (done that too - it worked just fine). You do have to be willing to move your glider around to look all around when you suspect there is someone in your blind spot. Would you write an article for Soaring magazine about your techniques? It seems like an appropriate time. I know I don't see fighters soon enough, and I'm sure I could miss aircraft coming up behind me. I often see aircraft in the distance, but I know I haven't seen some airplanes of various types that were potential threats. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" |
#6
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![]() Eric Greenwell wrote: Would you write an article for Soaring magazine about your techniques? It seems like an appropriate time. I know I don't see fighters soon enough, and I'm sure I could miss aircraft coming up behind me. I often see aircraft in the distance, but I know I haven't seen some airplanes of various types that were potential threats. Eric, it's not so much a technique as paranoia about other traffic. There are some tricks that all pilots should know and use: have an absolutely clean canopy (inside and out - I'm amazed by how filthy most pilots let their canopies get), minimize reflections and obstructions (PDA's, big compasses, etc.), keep "inside the cockpit" tasks short, refocus at inifinity often while scanning, look for threats, not just passing airplanes (low or high is not very critical, what's on the horizon is dangerous!, and ALWAYS CLEAR YOUR FLIGHTPATH), look for motion or lack of it in the forward quadrant. Use every tool available - call out passing planes to other gliders and vice versa, listen to tower when passing a busy airport, look for shadows on the ground (good in the pattern), smoke trails or glints in the air, and sound - if anything makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, the turn and look around. Think about where the traffic will be coming from. When you are cruising and are near the VFR hemispheric altitudes, look in the direction the traffic will be coming from. Most power pilots will fly at "easy" altitudes (multiples of 500'). Avoid hanging around VORs, intersections, and following major interstates - lots of power traffic there, flying IFR (I follow roads)! Due to the speed difference it is hard for a glider to get away from a fast mover at close range, but if you are seen there is a good chance he will maneuver to avoid. And your cross section is basically the same whether turning or flying straight - it's just oriented different. But whip into a steep turn (45 degrees either way) and you will probably be seen - and you get to see other planes maneuver out of your way. I've seen everything from King Airs, 737s, and F-16s respond to a wing flash. Of course I've also seen a 737 fly right through my thermal just outside of Class B airspace (acturally right next to an approach/departure extension of the B airspace. I was carefully thermalling outside the Class B, watching the arrivals, and watched as one guy approached from the West. When it was obvious he was going to join me in my nice 7 knot thermal, I moved out of his way, let him by (no noise by the way) then re-entered the thermal and continued the climb. I've also heard jet noise, done a check turn, and been rewarded with the sight of 2 F-16s about a half mile away maneuvering hard to go around me. Final tip - if you see one jet fighter, start looking real hard for the other one, and for the additional two in trail. And if the one you see is going to pass about a mile to your side, then be real scared of the one you don't see that is in one mile spread formation, watching his leader, just like you are. Fighters almost never fly alone. Anybody else got good suggestions/techniques/tips? Kirk 66 |
#7
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Wow, so many aircrafts...
In the 7 years and about 2000 hours I flew my LS4, I never saw commercial traffic close by, and I fly most of the time in the Reno area. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I am using a transponder? I had one close call over airsailing with an airliner in the short time I flew club gliders without transponders (I believe they all have transponders now). Ramy kirk.stant wrote: Eric Greenwell wrote: Would you write an article for Soaring magazine about your techniques? It seems like an appropriate time. I know I don't see fighters soon enough, and I'm sure I could miss aircraft coming up behind me. I often see aircraft in the distance, but I know I haven't seen some airplanes of various types that were potential threats. Eric, it's not so much a technique as paranoia about other traffic. There are some tricks that all pilots should know and use: have an absolutely clean canopy (inside and out - I'm amazed by how filthy most pilots let their canopies get), minimize reflections and obstructions (PDA's, big compasses, etc.), keep "inside the cockpit" tasks short, refocus at inifinity often while scanning, look for threats, not just passing airplanes (low or high is not very critical, what's on the horizon is dangerous!, and ALWAYS CLEAR YOUR FLIGHTPATH), look for motion or lack of it in the forward quadrant. Use every tool available - call out passing planes to other gliders and vice versa, listen to tower when passing a busy airport, look for shadows on the ground (good in the pattern), smoke trails or glints in the air, and sound - if anything makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, the turn and look around. Think about where the traffic will be coming from. When you are cruising and are near the VFR hemispheric altitudes, look in the direction the traffic will be coming from. Most power pilots will fly at "easy" altitudes (multiples of 500'). Avoid hanging around VORs, intersections, and following major interstates - lots of power traffic there, flying IFR (I follow roads)! Due to the speed difference it is hard for a glider to get away from a fast mover at close range, but if you are seen there is a good chance he will maneuver to avoid. And your cross section is basically the same whether turning or flying straight - it's just oriented different. But whip into a steep turn (45 degrees either way) and you will probably be seen - and you get to see other planes maneuver out of your way. I've seen everything from King Airs, 737s, and F-16s respond to a wing flash. Of course I've also seen a 737 fly right through my thermal just outside of Class B airspace (acturally right next to an approach/departure extension of the B airspace. I was carefully thermalling outside the Class B, watching the arrivals, and watched as one guy approached from the West. When it was obvious he was going to join me in my nice 7 knot thermal, I moved out of his way, let him by (no noise by the way) then re-entered the thermal and continued the climb. I've also heard jet noise, done a check turn, and been rewarded with the sight of 2 F-16s about a half mile away maneuvering hard to go around me. Final tip - if you see one jet fighter, start looking real hard for the other one, and for the additional two in trail. And if the one you see is going to pass about a mile to your side, then be real scared of the one you don't see that is in one mile spread formation, watching his leader, just like you are. Fighters almost never fly alone. Anybody else got good suggestions/techniques/tips? Kirk 66 |
#8
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Kirk... Really, all the good suggestions etc... but let's not kid ourselves,
shall we? Please, do me a favor. Open your favorite word processor (while you are, obviously, reading R.A.S. at some sort of a computing device). Set font to Arial, size to 10 and zoom to 100%. Type letter o (lower case) on a blank page. Move the blinking cursor away. Step back 10 feet. This is the same angular size the Hawker was to the glider pilot only 20 seconds (one turn in thermal) before impact. Can you see it? If you can, congratulations -- you've got one heckofa vision. Now change the text color to *white*. Any more questions? The truth is, if you can't see this tiny *motionless* speck ...two miles away ...in the inversion haze ...on one thermalling turn, then it is going to hit you before you finish the next. Let alone, where can you go in those few seconds even if you do see 'em? -- Yuliy "kirk.stant" wrote in message ps.com... Eric Greenwell wrote: Would you write an article for Soaring magazine about your techniques? It seems like an appropriate time. I know I don't see fighters soon enough, and I'm sure I could miss aircraft coming up behind me. I often see aircraft in the distance, but I know I haven't seen some airplanes of various types that were potential threats. Eric, it's not so much a technique as paranoia about other traffic. There are some tricks that all pilots should know and use: have an absolutely clean canopy (inside and out - I'm amazed by how filthy most pilots let their canopies get), minimize reflections and obstructions (PDA's, big compasses, etc.), keep "inside the cockpit" tasks short, refocus at inifinity often while scanning, look for threats, not just passing airplanes (low or high is not very critical, what's on the horizon is dangerous!, and ALWAYS CLEAR YOUR FLIGHTPATH), look for motion or lack of it in the forward quadrant. Use every tool available - call out passing planes to other gliders and vice versa, listen to tower when passing a busy airport, look for shadows on the ground (good in the pattern), smoke trails or glints in the air, and sound - if anything makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, the turn and look around. Think about where the traffic will be coming from. When you are cruising and are near the VFR hemispheric altitudes, look in the direction the traffic will be coming from. Most power pilots will fly at "easy" altitudes (multiples of 500'). Avoid hanging around VORs, intersections, and following major interstates - lots of power traffic there, flying IFR (I follow roads)! Due to the speed difference it is hard for a glider to get away from a fast mover at close range, but if you are seen there is a good chance he will maneuver to avoid. And your cross section is basically the same whether turning or flying straight - it's just oriented different. But whip into a steep turn (45 degrees either way) and you will probably be seen - and you get to see other planes maneuver out of your way. I've seen everything from King Airs, 737s, and F-16s respond to a wing flash. Of course I've also seen a 737 fly right through my thermal just outside of Class B airspace (acturally right next to an approach/departure extension of the B airspace. I was carefully thermalling outside the Class B, watching the arrivals, and watched as one guy approached from the West. When it was obvious he was going to join me in my nice 7 knot thermal, I moved out of his way, let him by (no noise by the way) then re-entered the thermal and continued the climb. I've also heard jet noise, done a check turn, and been rewarded with the sight of 2 F-16s about a half mile away maneuvering hard to go around me. Final tip - if you see one jet fighter, start looking real hard for the other one, and for the additional two in trail. And if the one you see is going to pass about a mile to your side, then be real scared of the one you don't see that is in one mile spread formation, watching his leader, just like you are. Fighters almost never fly alone. Anybody else got good suggestions/techniques/tips? Kirk 66 |
#9
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A few additions to Kirk's excellent points - from the background of former
fighter pilot, current airline pilot, and current glider pilot: 1. We often surprise each other in sailplanes with how hard it is to see each other. Don't expect an airline pilot to be any better at it! The fighter pilot at least will have good visual acuity and is used to looking for small targets. 2. Airline pilots don't carry sectionals - at the speeds we operate, there would be little time to use them anyway. Fighter pilots will carry a low level map and will have thought about visual traffic conflicts, wires, terrain, etc in the planning stages. At the speeds they operate, they aren't looking at those maps very often, once airborne. 3. The busier glider operations are notam'd and often referred to by atc controllers. If you have an operable transponder, you will *normally* be called out by atc and if TCAS equipped, airline pilots will be aware of your location. They would still have to see you to maneuver away from you. (See note 1.) Big airliners are not very maneuverable (mine - the Boeing 737 - is limited to 2.5 g!). 4. Fighters are a different case. They don't have TCAS and only some of them have the ability to interrogate/detect transponder targets. Some of them have air intercept radar capability, but sailplanes are small radar targets and will often (usually!) be filtered out because of their low speeds and altitudes - like highway traffic. If they are at low altitude, fighters usually operate at high speed (420 - 540 indicated, except the A-10). As Kirk pointed out they will almost never be alone, but will be in formations of 2 - 4. When low level (100 to 1500 agl, most commonly 300 - 500agl), they will normally *not* be receiving traffic information from ATC. When operating in a MOA, there may be intercept controllers who can call out glider traffic, but again, without a transponder, it is unlikely. The formations will vary, but most pairs of flight lead and wingman will be laterally spread by 5000 to 10000 feet, for visual lookout. The flight lead will be spending quite a bit of his time looking forward for threat detection and navigation, but the wingman will be spending less time looking forward because he must maintain formation. If they see you, they have an excellent capability to avoid you. Head on and tail on, the sailplane has the tiny visual profile that fighter designers dream of.... In other words, you are nearly invisible unless you have a wing up in a turn/thermal. 5. As Kirk said, the primary threat is at 6 o'clock, because it is the hardest to see - essentially, only the overtaking aircraft has a reasonable chance of avoiding a collision. Therefore, if you know you are operating in a high threat area: MOA, low level route, approach corridor, VFR flyway, near an airport etc, I would "belly check" periodically, depending on the nature of the threat. The timing is based on the amount of time it takes for the threat aircraft to close from outside visual range to hitting me from the 6 o'clock position. I use visual ranges of 8nm for airliners, 5 nm for small commercial jets (corporate and regional jets) and fighters, and 3 nm for light aircraft - adjust as your visual acuity and experience dictate. I use worst-case speeds as follows: airliner and small jets - 4 nm/min, fighters - 8 nm/min, and light aircraft - 2.5 nm/min. Combing detection ranges and times, I calculate: airliners - 2 min, small jets - 1 min and 15 sec, fighters - roughly 40 sec, and light planes - approx 1 min and 15 sec. So... if you are straight and level for more than these times, there is sufficient time for an aircraft to move from outside (my) visual range to the same airspace as my (your) little pink body. As you would probably guess, fighters are the worst case because of their relatively small size and high closure rate. On the positive side, there are typically more eyeballs with better acuity and better maneuverability involved. Interestingly, small jets and light aircraft are not that far behind, as far as detection time is concerned. In my experience they are far less likely to see you than the fighters. The same is true for airliners, but because of their size you have more time to see them coming... 6. How to do a belly check: No, I don't hack a stopwatch, but I keep the above times in mind with respect to the likely threat for my area. My primary threat is small jet/light aircraft that operate on various highway/flyways and approach corridors. Away from these specific areas, traffic density is extremely low. First clear your "new six" - if you are going to turn left, look to the area behind to the right 4 - 5 oclock position - this will be your new blind spot. Next clear your new nose position - this is where you are going to roll out. Finally make a 45 deg turn to the left and visually clear your "old six", which is now at your left 7 to 8 o'clock. Often/usually, a belly check can be incorporated into turns you are going to make anyway, for other reasons. When you visually clear, make sure you focus on something on the horizon, otherwise you are only visually clearing out to an arms length. If I really need to hold a straight line, I do the belly check as a gentle 45 deg turn to each side. 7. In a thermal, periodically check to the outside of your term to clear your "new six". If there are other sailplanes with you in the thermal, of course they are the primary threats for midair, but you still need to check for other aircraft. Fortunately, you are easier to see while turning - as long as the other pilots are looking... 8. Proximity to clouds. You need to think about what you are doing when you are near cloudbase, in proximity to likely IFR traffic. If you are 500' below cloudbase (perfectly legal), and an airliner descends out of the cloud at 250kt on his descent profile on collision course (perfectly legal), there may be as little as 20 seconds to impact. If you are tail on when this happens - good luck. I'm sure no one would ever be right at cloudbase on a nice day, because that would violate the FARs - more importantly, you are "rolling the bones" every time you do this on a known approach corridor. 9. Conclusion. If you fly in a high airliner/small jet threat area and can afford a transponder it will help other people see/avoid you. If your primary threat comes from military operations in MOAs, I would not spend the money on a transponder unless I knew those fighters have intercept/atc controllers passing them information. The various TPAS - type devices will help your see/avoid efforts and should help in the case of fighters, although the flight lead is likely the only one squawking in the formation. Only you/your club knows the primary threats for your particular operating area and you need to understand what they are. Taylor your altitude awareness/cloud avoidance and belly check frequency to the nature of your local area. Don't cede visual lookout/avoidance responsibility to someone else - ever. Sailplane right-of-way is a myth in most situations and a comfort only to your survivors/legal counsel. Hope this helps. Glen |
#10
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Thanks for the excellent overview, Glen. Regarding number 3, why would
a TCAS equipped airliner pilot need to see me if the TCAS gives the resolution? I'm pretty sure most of the airliners vectored around me never actually see me (although I always wave ;-) Ramy Glen Kelley wrote: A few additions to Kirk's excellent points - from the background of former fighter pilot, current airline pilot, and current glider pilot: 1. We often surprise each other in sailplanes with how hard it is to see each other. Don't expect an airline pilot to be any better at it! The fighter pilot at least will have good visual acuity and is used to looking for small targets. 2. Airline pilots don't carry sectionals - at the speeds we operate, there would be little time to use them anyway. Fighter pilots will carry a low level map and will have thought about visual traffic conflicts, wires, terrain, etc in the planning stages. At the speeds they operate, they aren't looking at those maps very often, once airborne. 3. The busier glider operations are notam'd and often referred to by atc controllers. If you have an operable transponder, you will *normally* be called out by atc and if TCAS equipped, airline pilots will be aware of your location. They would still have to see you to maneuver away from you. (See note 1.) Big airliners are not very maneuverable (mine - the Boeing 737 - is limited to 2.5 g!). 4. Fighters are a different case. They don't have TCAS and only some of them have the ability to interrogate/detect transponder targets. Some of them have air intercept radar capability, but sailplanes are small radar targets and will often (usually!) be filtered out because of their low speeds and altitudes - like highway traffic. If they are at low altitude, fighters usually operate at high speed (420 - 540 indicated, except the A-10). As Kirk pointed out they will almost never be alone, but will be in formations of 2 - 4. When low level (100 to 1500 agl, most commonly 300 - 500agl), they will normally *not* be receiving traffic information from ATC. When operating in a MOA, there may be intercept controllers who can call out glider traffic, but again, without a transponder, it is unlikely. The formations will vary, but most pairs of flight lead and wingman will be laterally spread by 5000 to 10000 feet, for visual lookout. The flight lead will be spending quite a bit of his time looking forward for threat detection and navigation, but the wingman will be spending less time looking forward because he must maintain formation. If they see you, they have an excellent capability to avoid you. Head on and tail on, the sailplane has the tiny visual profile that fighter designers dream of.... In other words, you are nearly invisible unless you have a wing up in a turn/thermal. 5. As Kirk said, the primary threat is at 6 o'clock, because it is the hardest to see - essentially, only the overtaking aircraft has a reasonable chance of avoiding a collision. Therefore, if you know you are operating in a high threat area: MOA, low level route, approach corridor, VFR flyway, near an airport etc, I would "belly check" periodically, depending on the nature of the threat. The timing is based on the amount of time it takes for the threat aircraft to close from outside visual range to hitting me from the 6 o'clock position. I use visual ranges of 8nm for airliners, 5 nm for small commercial jets (corporate and regional jets) and fighters, and 3 nm for light aircraft - adjust as your visual acuity and experience dictate. I use worst-case speeds as follows: airliner and small jets - 4 nm/min, fighters - 8 nm/min, and light aircraft - 2.5 nm/min. Combing detection ranges and times, I calculate: airliners - 2 min, small jets - 1 min and 15 sec, fighters - roughly 40 sec, and light planes - approx 1 min and 15 sec. So... if you are straight and level for more than these times, there is sufficient time for an aircraft to move from outside (my) visual range to the same airspace as my (your) little pink body. As you would probably guess, fighters are the worst case because of their relatively small size and high closure rate. On the positive side, there are typically more eyeballs with better acuity and better maneuverability involved. Interestingly, small jets and light aircraft are not that far behind, as far as detection time is concerned. In my experience they are far less likely to see you than the fighters. The same is true for airliners, but because of their size you have more time to see them coming... 6. How to do a belly check: No, I don't hack a stopwatch, but I keep the above times in mind with respect to the likely threat for my area. My primary threat is small jet/light aircraft that operate on various highway/flyways and approach corridors. Away from these specific areas, traffic density is extremely low. First clear your "new six" - if you are going to turn left, look to the area behind to the right 4 - 5 oclock position - this will be your new blind spot. Next clear your new nose position - this is where you are going to roll out. Finally make a 45 deg turn to the left and visually clear your "old six", which is now at your left 7 to 8 o'clock. Often/usually, a belly check can be incorporated into turns you are going to make anyway, for other reasons. When you visually clear, make sure you focus on something on the horizon, otherwise you are only visually clearing out to an arms length. If I really need to hold a straight line, I do the belly check as a gentle 45 deg turn to each side. 7. In a thermal, periodically check to the outside of your term to clear your "new six". If there are other sailplanes with you in the thermal, of course they are the primary threats for midair, but you still need to check for other aircraft. Fortunately, you are easier to see while turning - as long as the other pilots are looking... 8. Proximity to clouds. You need to think about what you are doing when you are near cloudbase, in proximity to likely IFR traffic. If you are 500' below cloudbase (perfectly legal), and an airliner descends out of the cloud at 250kt on his descent profile on collision course (perfectly legal), there may be as little as 20 seconds to impact. If you are tail on when this happens - good luck. I'm sure no one would ever be right at cloudbase on a nice day, because that would violate the FARs - more importantly, you are "rolling the bones" every time you do this on a known approach corridor. 9. Conclusion. If you fly in a high airliner/small jet threat area and can afford a transponder it will help other people see/avoid you. If your primary threat comes from military operations in MOAs, I would not spend the money on a transponder unless I knew those fighters have intercept/atc controllers passing them information. The various TPAS - type devices will help your see/avoid efforts and should help in the case of fighters, although the flight lead is likely the only one squawking in the formation. Only you/your club knows the primary threats for your particular operating area and you need to understand what they are. Taylor your altitude awareness/cloud avoidance and belly check frequency to the nature of your local area. Don't cede visual lookout/avoidance responsibility to someone else - ever. Sailplane right-of-way is a myth in most situations and a comfort only to your survivors/legal counsel. Hope this helps. Glen |
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