Midair near Minden

snoop wrote:
snip
The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region?

Good point about getting the glider symbol on the IFR charts. Most jet
jocks use these almost exclusively. The more we do to raise awareness
the better.

Another way to raise awareness of glider trafiic is to make Pireps. I
try to do this at least once on every good soaring day, especially if
there is wave. Report your aircraft type as simply a Glider (nobody
else will know or care what make/model you are flying). You can just
report clear and 50 mi visibility, or give detailed (and useful) info
on cloud layers and winds aloft. Pireps get wide dissemination to
pilots, ATC and dispatchers, so this is a good way to remind them that
we are out there too. Glider pilots who also fly commercially will
appreciate hearing your Pirep when they are working (try to make them
as jealous as possible by reporting from the top of the climb!). You
can give Pireps to Flight Watch on 122.0 MHz, or you can contact a FSS
or ATC facility on a discrete frequency. Check the AIM for more info on
Pireps.

Another thing you can do is to get VFR flight following if you have a
transponder. Again, just give your aircraft type as a Glider. This lets
pilots and controllers in the section know we are out there. It also
gets you a discrete transponder code. Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

I know a lot of glider pilots like to stay out of the system. But out
of sight is out of mind.

Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

And many (most?) glider pilots flying in the Minden area squak 0440
rathern than 1200. There's a letter of agreement in place with Reno ATC
that permits gliders to use 0440 as a way of telling ATC that the
aircraft is a glider. This eliminates the need for more radio chatter
and could make their filtering easier, assuming they can filter based on
the codes.

Jeremy

My understanding is that the 1200 filter is used more often than not,
but that may be specific to the Northeast US where I fly. Controllors
who think they are busy can activate it to reduce their work load.
Corollers are only reposible for IFR-IFR traffic separation, and are
not required to report VFR traffic, even with a transponder. IFR pilots
in VMC are still responsible for see and avoid.

It is good that you have 0440 assigned for Gliders with Reno. There are
a similar patchwork of agreements with other centers. I think
Philadelphia approach uses 1202 for towplanes. There are various codes
for Baloons and Airships too, which may be in conflict between areas.
What we really need is a national set of these used universally.

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

Whoa! Really? Isn't that the point of requiring all airplanes to carry
transponders? What I've heard from multiple sources is the only places
the VFR code is filtered out are areas with VERY heavy traffic (and
where VFR traffic is confined), like over Los Angeles. Knowledgeable
people that fly in the Minden area and discuss things with ATC there
have never suggested that Reno is filtering out VFR codes!

And many (most?) glider pilots flying in the Minden area squak 0440
rathern than 1200. There's a letter of agreement in place with Reno ATC
that permits gliders to use 0440 as a way of telling ATC that the
aircraft is a glider. This eliminates the need for more radio chatter
and could make their filtering easier, assuming they can filter based on
the codes.

Jeremy

Doug Haluza wrote:
snoop wrote:
snip
The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region?

Good point about getting the glider symbol on the IFR charts. Most jet
jocks use these almost exclusively. The more we do to raise awareness
the better.

Another way to raise awareness of glider trafiic is to make Pireps. I
try to do this at least once on every good soaring day, especially if
there is wave. Report your aircraft type as simply a Glider (nobody
else will know or care what make/model you are flying). You can just
report clear and 50 mi visibility, or give detailed (and useful) info
on cloud layers and winds aloft. Pireps get wide dissemination to
pilots, ATC and dispatchers, so this is a good way to remind them that
we are out there too. Glider pilots who also fly commercially will
appreciate hearing your Pirep when they are working (try to make them
as jealous as possible by reporting from the top of the climb!). You
can give Pireps to Flight Watch on 122.0 MHz, or you can contact a FSS
or ATC facility on a discrete frequency. Check the AIM for more info on
Pireps.

Another thing you can do is to get VFR flight following if you have a
transponder. Again, just give your aircraft type as a Glider. This lets
pilots and controllers in the section know we are out there. It also
gets you a discrete transponder code. Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

I know a lot of glider pilots like to stay out of the system. But out
of sight is out of mind.

Doug:

Clearly my article in the July issue of SOARING on transponders fell
shy of the mark I had hoped to hit as far as educating glider pilots
regarding transponders.
There are four symbols generated by ATC computers for transponder
equipped aircraft. One: transponder, no encoder, non discrete, (like
the basic VFR squwak of 1200.) Two: transponder and encoder, non
discrete - again, like the basic VFR squwak of 1200. Three:
transponder, no encoder, (dam few of these out there any more),
discrete as in talking to ATC. and Four: transponder and encoder,
discrete. That is talking to or about to talk to ATC.
Each controller is required by virtue of the ATC handbook, (7110.65 and
the management handbook 7110.3), to display ALL transponder equipped
aircraft. What the controller does have the option to do is adjust the
filter limits at his scope to exclude the encoded altitude of aircraft
which are not in his assigned airspace.
Had the transponder been turned on by the pilot involved in the
mid-air, the jet would have seen the glider on it's TCAS, and ATC
would have been issuing the glider as traffic to the jet. In the Reno
area, most glider pilots are squawking an non discrete code which
indicates to ATC that they are a glider.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Doug Haluza wrote:
In the Reno
area, most glider pilots are squawking an non discrete code which
indicates to ATC that they are a glider.


If you are saying that most glider pilots in the Reno area have
transponders, I disagree. If you are saying that those who do have Xponders
squawk 0440, I concur.

I fly out of Minden and have both a transponder and a TPAS. The majority of
glider traffic I acquire visually do not show up on my TPAS at all.

I would say no more than 50% (and it's probably closer to 30%) of gliders
have transponders and are squawking.

bumper