TIS (traffic information service)

Bob Noel schrieb:

I know the advantages from an ATC POV, but what is the advantage for
the aircraft owner?

To be allowed to fly in controlled airspace at all? In Europe, Mode S
will be mandated, because ATC claims Mode C reaches its limits. This
means in the forseeable futu No Mode S, no fly in controlled airspace.

Stefan

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:52:11 +0200, Stefan
wrote in :

Bob Noel schrieb:

I know the advantages from an ATC POV, but what is the advantage for
the aircraft owner?

To be allowed to fly in controlled airspace at all? In Europe, Mode S
will be mandated, because ATC claims Mode C reaches its limits. This
means in the forseeable futu No Mode S, no fly in controlled airspace.


Would that Mode S requirement be a result of the implement ion of
outsource ATC?

Larry Dighera schrieb:

Would that Mode S requirement be a result of the implement ion of
outsource ATC?

No, why should it? Mode S implementation is very expensive for ATC. It's
as I said: They say that in certain regions iof Europe, Mode C reaches
its limits. As I don't know anything about it, I have to believe it.

From http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/public/faq/faq.html:
Mode S is being deployed because the current SSR systems have reached
the limit of their operational capability. This takes the form of
exceeded maximum number of targets, RF pollution, lost targets, identity
errors and Mode A code shortage. Mode S is therefore a necessary SSR
replacement in airspace subject to high levels of traffic density.

Stefan

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:47:21 +0200, Stefan wrote:

Mode S is being deployed because the current SSR systems have reached the
limit of their operational capability. This takes the form of exceeded
maximum number of targets, RF pollution, lost targets, identity errors and
Mode A code shortage. Mode S is therefore a necessary SSR replacement in
airspace subject to high levels of traffic density.

I've some difficulty understanding this.

From reading here, I've been lead to believe that aviation is more common
in the US than in the EU. Given this, I have to assume that a locality
like the KEWR/KLGA/KJJK area would have a higher aircraft density than
anywhere in Europe.

No?

If so, then how can a locality like that not be suffering from the same
problem as that described in the cited text? I fly in this area, and I've
never noted identity errors nor have I ever been denied service due to an
insufficiency of mode A codes.

- Andrew

Andrew,

If so, then how can a locality like that not be suffering from the same
problem as that described in the cited text?


Excellent question. That's why many have doubts about Eurocontrol's
claims. But it's all too late...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Andrew Gideon schrieb:

I've some difficulty understanding this.

From reading here, I've been lead to believe that aviation is more common
in the US than in the EU. Given this, I have to assume that a locality
like the KEWR/KLGA/KJJK area would have a higher aircraft density than
anywhere in Europe.

No?

Frankly, I don't know. No doubt there will be some spam can drivers who
know as little as I do about ATC who will tell you that the specialists
at Eurocontrol have no clue, that everything is better elsewhere and
that Eurocontrol's agenda is to stop all aviation in Europe anyway... an
attitude which is pretty much en vogue right now. I'm somewhat untypical
as I don't share this attitude. I frankly admit that I don't know enough
to judge their claim, so I have to believe it. I don't believe that
Eurocontrol is just a bunch of idiots and sadists.

Nonetheless some thoughts: The primary concern is not the number of
transponder codes. It's the fact that when lots of transponders which
are located near each other (angle wise) respond simultaneously, the
system breaks down. I don't have the exact numbers handy, but there is a
discrimination limit. And there have already been reports of lost
targets. (No, I won't go through the hassle to dig the report out, so
you can choose to believe or not believe in my memory.) There are some
parts in Europe which are surprisingly congested, and the airspace in
those parts tends to be extremely complex. Maybe Europeans just care
more about such lost targets than Americans? And then, they are not
saying that the traffic has already exceeded their capacity. They say it
will reach its limits soon. I think it's a responsible move to try to
proactively solve the problem before the system breaks down.

Stefan

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:47:21 +0200, Stefan
wrote in :

Larry Dighera schrieb:

Would that Mode S requirement be a result of the implemention of
outsource ATC?

No, why should it?

Because the corporation providing ATC services under contract to the
government(s) thinks it's a good idea?

Mode S implementation is very expensive for ATC.

Perhaps the ATC contractor can get the funds necessary to implement
Mode S equipment installation from the government(s), and then use the
added functionality provided by Mode S to enhance their revenue stream
in the future.

It's as I said: They say that in certain regions iof Europe, Mode C reaches
its limits. As I don't know anything about it, I have to believe it.

Either believe it, or do the research necessary to verify the
allegation.

From http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/public/faq/faq.html:
Mode S is being deployed because the current SSR systems have reached
the limit of their operational capability. This takes the form of
exceeded maximum number of targets, RF pollution, lost targets, identity
errors and Mode A code shortage. Mode S is therefore a necessary SSR
replacement in airspace subject to high levels of traffic density.


Can European airspace possibly be more congested than that in the US,
say Chicago or Los Angeles?

Larry Dighera schrieb:

No, why should it?

Because the corporation providing ATC services under contract to the
government(s) thinks it's a good idea?

Obviously, they do.

Either believe it, or do the research necessary to verify the
allegation.

In this particular case, I choose to believe it. You can handle it als
you want.

Stefan

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

Can European airspace possibly be more congested than that in the US,
say Chicago or Los Angeles?

Enroute? yeah, I think so.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 22:02:46 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
:

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

Can European airspace possibly be more congested than that in the US,
say Chicago or Los Angeles?

Enroute? yeah, I think so.

But surely the US terminal airspace is more congested.