No more "Left Downwind"?

Does a control tower always mean class D (or better)?
No.

Does class D always mean a control tower?
No.

Is the D equivalent to a "surface area"?
No.

Ok. I checked the AIM. A "surface area" is the airspace contained by
the lateral boundries of B, C, D, or E airspace designated for an
airport tha begins at the surface and extends upwards.

Indefinately? To outer space? To the limit of that class airspace?

Special VFR operations are conducted within a class B, C, D, or E
surface area. Class E airspace is controlled airspace that is not A, B,
C, or D.

So, if a class D surrounding an airport is overlain by class E, it seems
I should be able to get a special VFR clearance up to 18000 feet (where
class A generally begins). No?

When would an operating control tower not induce class D (or better)
airspace? When would a class D airspace not have a control tower? They
are usually correlated, but I seem to remember that they are not
necessarily correlated.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose schrieb:

When would an operating control tower not induce class D (or better)
airspace? When would a class D airspace not have a control tower?

I can't give you an example in the USA, but where I live, there are
controlled airports without a control zone.

Controlled airfield means the tower controls the runway. Control zone
means the controller controls the traffic around the airfield. These two
are not nessecarily related. (Although they typically come together.)

Stefan

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...

Ok. I checked the AIM. A "surface area" is the airspace contained by the
lateral boundries of B, C, D, or E airspace designated for an airport tha
begins at the surface and extends upwards.

Indefinately? To outer space? To the limit of that class airspace?

Special VFR operations are conducted within a class B, C, D, or E surface
area. Class E airspace is controlled airspace that is not A, B, C, or D.

So, if a class D surrounding an airport is overlain by class E, it seems I
should be able to get a special VFR clearance up to 18000 feet (where
class A generally begins). No?


No. The SVFR clearance includes the surface area by name; "Cleared out of
Smallville Class D surface area, maintain Special VFR conditions." Once you
exit the Class D airspace the SVFR clearance no longer applies.

SVFR is also limited to below 10,000 MSL.



When would an operating control tower not induce class D (or better)
airspace?


Surface areas require weather observations. I don't know if any still exist
but when airspace was reclassified in 1993 there were still a handful of
airports with operating control towers but without weather observing. These
airports had control towers in Class G airspace.

You may also encounter temporary control towers in Class E or G airspace,
such as the one at Fond du Lac during AirVenture.



When would a class D airspace not have a control tower? They
are usually correlated, but I seem to remember that they are not
necessarily correlated.


When some knucklehead operating in an official capacity but beyond his
abilities and knowledge thinks it should be that way. The only example I'm
currently aware of is at SEA.

El Toro MCAS used to have Class D airspace adjacent to the Class C airspace
that didn't even reach the surface.

Pearson Field in Vancouver, WA, had Class D airspace from the surface to the
overlying Portland Class C airspace. Pearson had no control tower and was
the only airport in the Class D surface area. It now has a Class E surface
area.

When would an operating control tower not induce class D (or better)
airspace?
Surface areas require weather observations.

Thanks. That was the missing link. (of course, some would say that =I=
am the missing link... we won't go there.

When would a class D airspace not have a control tower?
When some knucklehead...

Aha! Maybe the knucklehead is the missing link. So much for
"intellegent design".

The SVFR clearance includes the surface area by name; "Cleared out of
Smallville Class D surface area, maintain Special VFR conditions." Once you
exit the Class D airspace the SVFR clearance no longer applies.

Ok, so in this case I would not have been cleared above the D.

I presume that the only way to get SVFR clearance in an E is if that E
extends to the ground, and is part of a surface area?

Is it possible (albeit unlikely) to get SVFR up through a D into
overlying C?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...

I presume that the only way to get SVFR clearance in an E is if that E
extends to the ground, and is part of a surface area?


SVFR exists ONLY in a surface area.



Is it possible (albeit unlikely) to get SVFR up through a D into overlying
C?


An aircraft can be issued SVFR to climb to VFR conditions if the only
weather limitation is restricted visibility, but it would have to reach
basic VFR conditions while within the surface area.

"Climb to VFR within the Smallville surface area, maintain Special VFR
conditions until reaching VFR."

"Climb to VFR within the Smallville surface area, maintain Special VFR
conditions until reaching VFR."

If the Smallville class D underlies class E, would this clearance permit
me to clime above the D into the E under SVFR? There was no class D
limitation in this clearance.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. net...

If the Smallville class D underlies class E, would this clearance permit
me to clime above the D into the E under SVFR?


No.



There was no class D limitation in this clearance.


Yes there was, "Climb to VFR within the Smallville surface area."

There was no class D limitation in this clearance.
Yes there was, "Climb to VFR within the Smallville surface area."

.... and thus the crux of my question. Where does it say where the
Smallvill surface area stops (vertically). The glossary in the AIM just
says "upwards" but does not say how far up. There is no reason to infer
that it would stop at a class boundary. There is a reason to infer that
it would stop at the top of controlled airspace (where the VFR rules are
"clear of clouds" anyway); that reason would be that special VFR
requires a clearance, and clearances cannot be given in uncontrolled
airspace. But if E or C overlays D, you're still in controlled
airspace, and there is no reason a D controller could not coordinate
with the owner of the airspace above the D.

If there is a place where it says where the top of a surface area is,
I'd like to see it.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 14:36:05 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
et:

El Toro MCAS used to have Class D airspace adjacent to the Class C airspace
that didn't even reach the surface.

Because I operate out of KSNA, that's an interesting bit of (old) news
to me. I can't put my hands on an old chart at the moment. Can you
tell me how the MCAS El Toro Class D airspace was structured if it
didn't reach the surface?


---------------------------------------------------
El Toro yesterday and today:
http://www.ocgp.org/news/displaynews.asp?NewsID=54

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Because I operate out of KSNA, that's an interesting bit of (old) news
to me. I can't put my hands on an old chart at the moment. Can you
tell me how the MCAS El Toro Class D airspace was structured if it
didn't reach the surface?


I could, but since I can put my hands on old charts I'll just scan the
portion of the Los Angeles sectional from 1987 and 1997 showing El Toro and
post them in alt.binaries.pictures.aviation.