End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants

Doug Haluza a écrit :

Now as far as OLC goes, there is no sporting aspect to the N-number
placement. Putting N-numbers on the gear doors does not provide any
meaningful competitive advantage. And it does not show up in the flight
log. So we would not be concerned with this in the OLC.

Is there a sporting aspect to the presence of night lights ? Does it
provide any competitive advantage ? Or does it show up in the flight log ???

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Denis wrote:
Doug Haluza a écrit :

Now as far as OLC goes, there is no sporting aspect to the N-number
placement. Putting N-numbers on the gear doors does not provide any
meaningful competitive advantage. And it does not show up in the flight
log. So we would not be concerned with this in the OLC.

Is there a sporting aspect to the presence of night lights ? Does it
provide any competitive advantage ? Or does it show up in the flight log ???

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

The flying past sunset does give a competitive advantage, since it
extends the length of the day, and therefore the distance covered. And
it does show up in the flight log. Since night lighting is very rare on
gliders, the pilot needs to make a note on the OLC claim if the glider
was equipped with lights.

Now as for whether we should allow night flight in gliders equipped
with lights, FAI has not yet covered this in the Sporting Code. It
still permits night flight with lights. Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this.

So if a glider is equiped with light, and legally lands 30 minutes
after sunset, it would no longer consider an unfair advantage?

Doug Haluza wrote:
Denis wrote:
Doug Haluza a écrit :

Now as far as OLC goes, there is no sporting aspect to the N-number
placement. Putting N-numbers on the gear doors does not provide any
meaningful competitive advantage. And it does not show up in the flight
log. So we would not be concerned with this in the OLC.

Is there a sporting aspect to the presence of night lights ? Does it
provide any competitive advantage ? Or does it show up in the flight log ???

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

The flying past sunset does give a competitive advantage, since it
extends the length of the day, and therefore the distance covered. And
it does show up in the flight log. Since night lighting is very rare on
gliders, the pilot needs to make a note on the OLC claim if the glider
was equipped with lights.

Now as for whether we should allow night flight in gliders equipped
with lights, FAI has not yet covered this in the Sporting Code. It
still permits night flight with lights. Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this.

Ramy wrote:
So if a glider is equiped with light, and legally lands 30 minutes
after sunset, it would no longer consider an unfair advantage?

Just as it's not an unfair advantage to put every available electronic
device in the cockpit.

Nor is it unfair to file an instrument flight plan to make a wave
flight, etc....

-Tom

Doug Haluza wrote:
Now as for whether we should allow night flight in gliders equipped
with lights, FAI has not yet covered this in the Sporting Code. It
still permits night flight with lights. Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this.

Being specific:
===
Sport Code - Section 3
4.5.3 Night flight

A flight which continues beyond the hours of legal daylight in the
country concerned shall not be validated, except where the glider and
pilot comply with the laws of that country for night flight.
===

There is a defined process for changing the Sporting Code, involving
public notifications, votes at more than one plenary session, discussion
amongst delegates, etc. This is intended to provide stability, such
that if one goes to the trouble of, say, adding position lights to their
glider, they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA...

Marc

Nicely put, Marc.

Marc Ramsey wrote:
There is a defined process for changing the Sporting Code, involving
public notifications, votes at more than one plenary session, discussion
amongst delegates, etc. This is intended to provide stability, such
that if one goes to the trouble of, say, adding position lights to their
glider, they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA...

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:
Now as for whether we should allow night flight in gliders equipped
with lights, FAI has not yet covered this in the Sporting Code. It
still permits night flight with lights. Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this.

Being specific:
===
Sport Code - Section 3
4.5.3 Night flight

A flight which continues beyond the hours of legal daylight in the
country concerned shall not be validated, except where the glider and
pilot comply with the laws of that country for night flight.
===

There is a defined process for changing the Sporting Code, involving
public notifications, votes at more than one plenary session, discussion
amongst delegates, etc. This is intended to provide stability, such
that if one goes to the trouble of, say, adding position lights to their
glider, they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA...

Do you believe requiring pilots to adhere to FAA rules (already in place
before the flight) like airspace and sunset for an OLC flight is
"changing the rules" for an OLC flight? As far as the lights go, I can
imagine the IGC, OLC, or the SSA might decide (sometime in the future)
that competitions would be better if sunset was chosen for the end of
the day. I can't imagine it would happen without the usual discussion
(meaning, for example, Doug H wouldn't decide it on his own); and if it
did, there would be lot of discussion afterwards, and undoubtedly
pressure on our directors to reconsider, so it wouldn't remain for long
as an "arbitrary" decision.

Personally, I would be in favor of an OLC rule that requires landing by
sunset to avoid giving an advantage to the few gliders with lights, and
to discourage pilots from adding lights. It would not require a change
in the sporting code.

I have a 36 ah battery, so I could add lights without too much trouble,
but I think the OLC would be better if I had to land before sunset.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Do you believe requiring pilots to adhere to FAA rules (already in place
before the flight) like airspace and sunset for an OLC flight is
"changing the rules" for an OLC flight?

I was responding to the specific comment "Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this." My response is, perhaps, but I don't know of a single
fatal outlanding accident that has occurred after sunset, but I know of
some that have occurred before. By this reasoning, we would all be
safer if we banned daytime flight.

As far as the lights go, I can
imagine the IGC, OLC, or the SSA might decide (sometime in the future)
that competitions would be better if sunset was chosen for the end of
the day. I can't imagine it would happen without the usual discussion
(meaning, for example, Doug H wouldn't decide it on his own); and if it
did, there would be lot of discussion afterwards, and undoubtedly
pressure on our directors to reconsider, so it wouldn't remain for long
as an "arbitrary" decision.

My issue is transparency. If we're going to change rules, rightly or
wrongly, there needs to be a process by which there is public
notification of intent, time for discussion before the directors vote,
rather than afterwards, and plenty of public warning of the impending
change...

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Do you believe requiring pilots to adhere to FAA rules (already in place
before the flight) like airspace and sunset for an OLC flight is
"changing the rules" for an OLC flight?

I was responding to the specific comment "Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this." My response is, perhaps, but I don't know of a single
fatal outlanding accident that has occurred after sunset, but I know of
some that have occurred before. By this reasoning, we would all be
safer if we banned daytime flight.

Marc, this is a really an unfair characterization. You ignore the point
that night VFR in airplanes is significantly more dangerous than day
VFR. Obviously, the lack of accidents after dark (not sunset) in
gliders is due to the very low exposure, not a low risk. My point was
that if this became commonplace, eventually there would be accidents,
and these would be preventable if we did not encourage people to do
this by giving them a competitive advantage (i.e. more time to score by
continuing into the night). Your straw-man about banning daytime flight
is rediculous.

As far as the lights go, I can
imagine the IGC, OLC, or the SSA might decide (sometime in the future)
that competitions would be better if sunset was chosen for the end of
the day. I can't imagine it would happen without the usual discussion .

And that was exactly my point in posting this--to start the discussion.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

...I would be in favor of an OLC rule that requires landing by
sunset to avoid giving an advantage to the few gliders with lights,
and to discourage pilots from adding lights.

How about a limit on span? No untoward advantage must accrue to those
who do simply because they can do.


I have a 36 ah battery, so I could add lights without too much trouble,
but I think the OLC would be better if I had to land before sunset.

The OLC will only be worse if it starts to supplement official
regulations with its own restrictions. As it is, we are all wound up
because some few don't believe we should conform to the rules that
already exist.

I was very excited about OLC last year. This year has been one
frustration after another, personally and nationally -- but I still like
it, and I think we are making too much out of the difficulties.

The FAA is not going to change the rules for night flight in order to
allow the OLC to conform to Eric's or Jack's preferences. As long as
everybody plays by the same rules, whether lights or no lights, that's
all that matters. If some do fly at night, we'll soon find out what can
be accomplished by doing so. If I don't succeed at gaining the highest
OLC point total simply because I don't fly at night, I'll just have to
live with it.

One of the values of OLC is that we can all see what is possible -- what
is being done -- in other regions, in other gliders, and by other
pilots, and compare this with our own accomplishments. It is a great
motivator, and learning takes place; more flying is done; and the
overall skill level increases, as does enjoyment.

Should we mandate that one may not circle to the right in a thermal? I
don't see much difference between that and making other rules that would
limit some aspects of soaring simply because there are those who don't
want to do those things themselves.

The OLC is right to require adherence to national flight regulations;
the SSA must conform to that aspect of OLC as part of its agreement with
the organizers and to fulfill its duty to its membership and to the
aviation system in the United States. The best methods may be debatable
but not the necessity. There is no alternative.


Jack