NATCA Going Down in Flames

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"bdl" wrote in message
oups.com...

Um. by not having controllers sleeping? If they want to sleep they
should go home. Its more conducive to sleep anyway.

Turn it around, how does it impact safety by not letting them take naps?


Letting them nap while on break makes it less likely they'll be drowsy while
on position. Is being drowsy while on position more safe or less safe?

I'll admit I don't know what the "standard" shifts are. Nor, the
turnaround between shifts. But I would assume they aren't working
doctors hours, or anything similar. Please enlighten me as to typical
work shifts.

If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.

"bdl" wrote in message
oups.com...

I'll admit I don't know what the "standard" shifts are. Nor, the
turnaround between shifts. But I would assume they aren't working
doctors hours, or anything similar. Please enlighten me as to typical
work shifts.


No, they're not working doctors hours. If they were working doctors hours
they'd probably be provided beds for naps like doctors are.

I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two evening
shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then repeat.
That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.



If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.


Agreed. What solution would you recommend? Allow naps while on break?
Send drowsy employees home on leave? Fire them?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two evening
shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then repeat.
That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.

Thanks. Interesting scheduling. Whats the length of a shift and break
time? Is it standardized across all facilities?

If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.


Agreed. What solution would you recommend? Allow naps while on break?
Send drowsy employees home on leave? Fire them?

I would suggest they get sleep before coming into work. Utilizing the
sick policy if they don't. Allowing naps, means that a controller might
be more willing to party hearty the night before, since they know they
can just take a nap during their breaks. If that option isn't
available to them, maybe they'll be more accommodating to their
required sleep schedule.

"bdl" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks. Interesting scheduling. Whats the length of a shift and break
time? Is it standardized across all facilities?


Eight hour shifts, mimumum of eight hours off between shifts. Those are
national standards.



I would suggest they get sleep before coming into work.


What if they do and they're drowsy anyway?



Utilizing the sick policy if they don't.


That's not permitted.



Allowing naps, means that a controller might
be more willing to party hearty the night before, since they know they
can just take a nap during their breaks. If that option isn't
available to them, maybe they'll be more accommodating to their
required sleep schedule.


Maybe. But what is the problem with napping while on a break anyway?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
I would suggest they get sleep before coming into work.

What if they do and they're drowsy anyway?

What is the penalty for showing up for your shift incapacitated?

Utilizing the sick policy if they don't.


That's not permitted.

Really? What constitutes sick then? Do you have to have a doctor's
note? Does a headache count? From articles I read, NY controllers
were using the sick policy to a great extent so obviously some people
are incapacitated enough to not show up for their shift.

Maybe. But what is the problem with napping while on a break anyway?

The controlling authority (now) says its forbidden.

"bdl" wrote in message
ps.com...

What is the penalty for showing up for your shift incapacitated?


Unrelated to the topic.



Really?


Really.



The controlling authority (now) says its forbidden.


True, but not an answer to the question.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Really.

You didn't answer the second part. What does constitute sick?

The controlling authority (now) says its forbidden.


True, but not an answer to the question.

Yes it is.

I'll admit I don't know what the "standard" shifts are. Nor, the
turnaround between shifts. But I would assume they aren't working
doctors hours, or anything similar. Please enlighten me as to typical
work shifts.

We bid days off every six months by seniority. My facility has no
turnover because it's a great place to work and live, therefore nobody
leaves and we need no people. We are going to start getting into some
retirements in the next few years. For that reason we are getting three
new people. First one this month then the other two in the spring. The
days off haven't changed for anybody in the last 5 or 6 years. We have
permanent days off, none of that rotating crap that are the legion of
poorly run facilities. In my case I have Saturdays and Sundays off.
Start work Monday at 3 pm, Tuesday at 1 pm, Wednesday at 7 am, Thursday
at 6 am and the mid shift Thursday night at 10 pm. Lately I have been
swapping my Thursday 6am for the Wednesday night mid with one of the
guys on those days off that don't ever want a mid, thereby working two
mids a week. I'll do that until mid October as I prefer to be home
days. Back when I worked at GFK we had the rotating days off until we
changed it to permanent days off.




If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.

Unavoidable. I am never 100% for the entirety of any midshift. Not
possible. The FAA knows this is a necessary part of working a 24 faciltiy.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two
evening
shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then repeat.
That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.

I'm surprised that there are work schedules like that, still around. It
seems like that would put a person in perpetual jet lag. That would put
people in a state where fatigue would be unpreventable, I would think.

No wonder that some think naps are needed. I would need them, I think.
--
Jim in NC

This is what CAMI (Civil Aeronautical Medical Institute, or something)
calls "rapidly reversing rotating schedules" or something like that. It's
usually a late shift (3p-11p) followed by an earlier late shift, then a
quick
turnaround day shift and either two more early dayshifts, or dayshift then
midshift (8 hours apart). CAMI reported this was one of the worse
schedules on the human body, saying something similar to what you said,
perpetual state of jetlag. Just when your body recovers, if at all, it's
time
to start all over again. I've been doing it for 21+ years at 3 different
facilities, 2 swings, 3 days or 2 swings, 2 days, 1 mid (graveyard). One
year, citing these CAMI studies, I tried to do the opposite, 3 day shifts -
each one later than the prior, and 2 swing shifts. I even said I'd take the
less popular days-off, like Mo/Tu or Tu/We even though I had the seniority
to get whatever I wanted. Shot down, "not the way we do it or have ever
done it".
If I were to do those 20-25min power naps, I'd say they were extremely
effective and I wouldnt get up in a daze. I'd be able to get right into the
heaviest rush - IF I were to do that. But it's not for everyone, but I
could
come out of a snoring, drooling, REM laden snoozefest - and be ready
for anything. Those that say it's not possible are wrong, based on what
I've seen. Not working graveyards go a long way towards not needing
them at all.
This whole "contract" thing...most controllers I know just want to come to
work,
do their job and be left alone. Now we're getting bothered daily with
"contract"
interpretations, GENOT's about a wrong interpretation, told that 'flat'
shoes
no matter if they're dress shoes or not are not acceptable, then the
opposite, then
we can work credit for someone else, then we can't, that we're getting a pay
cut,
then pay freeze, then status quo, then supervisors are getting a 13% pay
raise,
followed by a possible $20k pay cut, then we can't flex in, then we can...on
and
on it goes. In other words, non-stop screwing around with us with rules
that
those enforcing them don't even understand, regardless of this fairly
expensive
"class" they all went to in St. Louis..on your dime. My take, it was just
one big
party celebrating the wide swing of the pendulum in their direction.
Because
they sure didnt come back very edumacated.
Put simply, picture the least respected traffic dodgers, in other words
someone
being paid, quite a bit, to NOT do the job they were hired to do. In some
cases
it's been years, several, since talking to an airplane. These are the ones
deciding
if the shirt you have on, or the bottom of your shoe, is acceptable or not.
Same
ones who monday morning quarterback you about how you work traffic,
nevermind
they'd be downright dangerous near a scope. Now they've been given the keys
to
the kingdom with this contract, and they're going to town. It'll get real
bad before
they realize the damage they've done, and we'll all pay for it, but they
won't. If
some of you think controllers are overpaid, you need to get a load of these
types.
Paid even more to do far less. They are the problem. I like to think we
(pilots and controllers) are on the same team. I'm just not sure who they
think
lower of, controllers (worker bee's) or the users.
Rots of ruck, Chris


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two
evening
shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then
repeat.
That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.

I'm surprised that there are work schedules like that, still around. It
seems like that would put a person in perpetual jet lag. That would put
people in a state where fatigue would be unpreventable, I would think.

No wonder that some think naps are needed. I would need them, I think.
--
Jim in NC