Flaps on take-off and landing

Skylune wrote:

In the little planes, you will waste at least $100K between the training,
equipment, insurance, gas, etc.

Could you be more specific? If it costs, say, $10,000 to get PPL and
IFR rated, what do you spend the other $90,000 on?

Marc

Marc,

Could you be more specific?


No, he can't. A long history of postings shows that's not in his
repertoire (sp?).

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:

No, he can't. A long history of postings shows that's not in his
repertoire (sp?).

(Correct spelling.) That's a relief, because if you just rent aircraft,
you don't have to worry about anything but rental charges and gas,
right? In other words, insurance, maintenance, etc., are all the
responsibility of the rental agent (the FBO?), right?

I'm completely new to this, but it doesn't seem to me like owning is
such a great proposition if you're just a recreational flyer. Aside
from the cost of the plane itself (min. $50K, right?) you've got to pay
for maintenance, repairs, insurance, taxes, parking, etc., etc., etc.
The operating costs have got to pile up real fast. I don't know why a
recreational flyer would want to own. Plus, if you don't own, you can
fly lots of different planes.

As I say, though, I'm completely new to this, and this is an uninformed
opinion, so I welcome all responses.

Marc

"Marc Adler" wrote:
I'm completely new to this, but it doesn't seem to me like owning is
such a great proposition if you're just a recreational flyer. Aside
from the cost of the plane itself (min. $50K, right?) you've got to pay
for maintenance, repairs, insurance, taxes, parking, etc., etc., etc.
The operating costs have got to pile up real fast. I don't know why a
recreational flyer would want to own. Plus, if you don't own, you can
fly lots of different planes.

As I say, though, I'm completely new to this, and this is an uninformed
opinion, so I welcome all responses.

You raise some valid points. It is costly to own, and understandable
that some people prefer to rent.

As for why any recreational owner would want to own:

- you can fly whenever you feel like it. You don't have to plan your
flights around when the airplane you rent is available, and don't have
to go through any inconvenience if you need to get the keys for a flight
when the office is closed, or return same.

- you can take it wherever you want for how ever long you want and not
have to be back by a pre-designated time or date. Suppose you go
somewhere and want to stay longer but somebody has the plane reserved
after you? I prefer not to have to punch a time clock when I fly.

- you can opt NOT to go without having to call, give a reason, and
cancel within a specified timeframe or be charged anyway.

- you are only governed by the currency regulations that the FAA
stipulates, not the ones stipulated by the insurance company or the FBO
where you rent. So you don't have to go rent when you wouldn't otherwise
just to avoid having to do another checkout.

- you can do your BFRs and some subsequent ratings in your own airplane.

- you can keep whatever you want in the airplane instead of having to
haul everything you use on every flight back and forth every time.

- you have complete control over routine *and* other maintenance. For
me, this is a biggie! I can choose the mechanic. I can oversee the work
(I have a hangar). I can even *help* with the work as much as the regs
allow. This has been a great source of education and understanding of my
airplane -- no way I'd ever have learned as much about the inner
workings of any airplane I've ever rented.

- you can choose to repair things the FBO isn't obligated to fix.

- you can make whatever changes to the airplane you want (within the
regs). If you want to paint it purple, it's your choice.

- you know whether your airplane is being flown by anyone else and how
they fly. You don't have to fly something that is being used for spin
training at a flight school!

- it's fun to have something to go clean, polish, fiddle with when you
can't fly.

Yes, it's expensive, but those things make it worth it to me, even as a
recreational pilot. You can still fly different things -- there's
nothing stopping anyone from renting different airplanes even if you own
something of your own.

Marc Adler wrote:
Thomas Borchert wrote:


No, he can't. A long history of postings shows that's not in his
repertoire (sp?).


(Correct spelling.) That's a relief, because if you just rent aircraft,
you don't have to worry about anything but rental charges and gas,
right? In other words, insurance, maintenance, etc., are all the
responsibility of the rental agent (the FBO?), right?

I'm completely new to this, but it doesn't seem to me like owning is
such a great proposition if you're just a recreational flyer. Aside
from the cost of the plane itself (min. $50K, right?)

Depends on what you own. If you want fast, etc. you are spending a few
$$, but if you are handy, have a nice A&P to supervise you (and have the
time to do your own work), and don't mind a slower, smaller aircraft you
can do quite well. I know people with lots of $$ with nice aircraft and
I know people with considerably fewer assets with nicer aircraft, but
they spend lots of time.

you've got to pay
for maintenance, repairs, insurance, taxes, parking, etc., etc., etc.
The operating costs have got to pile up real fast.

We used to base at Dulles (was $125 to tie-down, now it's over $350,
moved to Culpeper in a hangar for $200). I used to help out a lot on
maintenance, but time became more valuable than $$. There are ways to
make it cheaper.
I don't know why a
recreational flyer would want to own. Plus, if you don't own, you can
fly lots of different planes.

I like my plane, I don't need to fly lots of different planes. My plane
is always there when I want it. I can take it for the weekend whenever
I want. If it's broke, I broke it and know it.

As I say, though, I'm completely new to this, and this is an uninformed
opinion, so I welcome all responses.

It's great to own (cheaper to rent unless you fly 100 hrs/yr)

Margy

Marc

Margy Natalie wrote:

It's great to own (cheaper to rent unless you fly 100 hrs/yr)

Interesting. How do you arrive at 100 hrs/yr?

Marc

Marc,

Interesting. How do you arrive at 100 hrs/yr?


A rule of thumb. There's a ton of articles and books comparing the cost
of owning and renting. Since all the fixed costs of owning (hangar
rent, insurance et cetera) go down per flight hour the more you fly (as
opposed to the cost per hour, mainly fuel, oil, maintenance), the total
cost per hour goes down the more you fly. At about 100 hours per year,
the profit an FBO makes starts to show itself in a substantial way
compared to the cost of owning.

Oh, and flying 100 hours per year is A LOT for most recreational
pilots.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Oh, and flying 100 hours per year is A LOT for most recreational
pilots.

Yeah, that would be around two hours every weekend, which is way more
than my schedule would permit, at least now. I might consider it if I
win the lottery/sell my screenplay/inherit those oil wells...

Marc

Marc Adler wrote:
Margy Natalie wrote:


It's great to own (cheaper to rent unless you fly 100 hrs/yr)


Interesting. How do you arrive at 100 hrs/yr?

Marc

That's considered about the average break even point. We try not to
count up how much we spend on flying, it makes it easier for us :-).

Margy

Marc,

but it doesn't seem to me like owning is
such a great proposition if you're just a recreational flyer.


Owning costs per hour come down to near rental value if you fly at
least 100 to 200 hours per year, depending on circumstances. That's why
partnerships are attractive for many, with groups of 2 to 5 people.

Here's the key advantage (to me) about owning:

I can take the plane, fly one hour to one of the North Sea barrier
islands here in Germany, stay for two or three days and fly one hour
back. Impossible to convice an FBO to let me have a plane for that
length of time when I fly just two hours.

Other advantages involve knowing the status of the plane and who
handled it, exterior and interior status and care, avionics tailored to
your likings and so on.

But in general, yes, owning will be more expensive than renting.

Oh, one more thing: Depending on what kind of plane you want, you can
get one for 20k or so. A nice Ercoupe, for example.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)