End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants

Well, SeeYou shows the sunset time, so I guess this is what Doug is
using.
Paul, your suggetion will work for short to medium or yoyo tasks when
one can plan to land way before sunset or can abort the task. But this
does not work for long O&R and triangle tasks, especially in the great
basin, where weaker conditions on course can slow you down
significantly. When this happens there are only two choices, to fly
back home and potentially land after sunset, or landout in the middle
of nowhere before sunset, hope you don't break anything, then spend a
freezing night in the cockpit waiting for your retrieve. Which one
would you pick?

Ramy

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I have a crazy, wild suggestion.... Fly your task so that you land before
any known definition of sunset and you will never need to worry. That is
what most pilots do. Those that do not are not playing fair - in my
opinion.

Paul Remde


"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:

I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of
soaring flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from
home or at altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead
and landed on time.

And exactly which time would that be, Paul?

You seem to have lost track of the story so far:
Doug wants to be able to pick illegal flights on OLC but he's having
trouble deciding which flights are illegal because he doesn't know when
it's "sunset" (as 'un'defined in the FARs) at all the places OLC flights
go to. Last night two astronomers locked horns and are heading for the
jugular over when sunset might be.

Now read on:

I know this won't help but in Oz the rules a
1. "Night" is the period between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight.
2. CASA (FAA equivalent) publishes beginning and end of daylight graphs
for latitudes from 0 to 45 throughout the year.
3. Daylight flight occurs between those times after converting local time
to Standard/Daylight Time.

Note that daylight "ceases" at a particular longitude solely dependent on
its latitude. No allowance for terrain, etc.

But the following is also in the AIP:
"Users ... should note that the parameters used in compiling the ...
Graphs do not include the nature of the terrain ... other than a cloudless
sky and unlimited visibility ... Consequently, the presence of cloud
cover, poor visibility or high terrain to the west of an aerodrome will
cause daylight to end ... earlier than that extracted from the appropriate
graph.
Allowance should made for these factors when planning a flight..."

The rules are reasonable but are no help in maintaining a level playing
field for a gliding competition.

So, Doug. Make up your mind what arbitrary rule you would like to
implement for the SSA-OLC and publish it. Let's say - evening civil
twilight at the latitude.

Stop using the FAA as an excuse and a crutch. Stand on your own feet.
Make a rule. Publish it. Enforce it. Cop the flak.

GC

Ramy wrote:
Well, SeeYou shows the sunset time, so I guess this is what Doug is
using.
Paul, your suggetion will work for short to medium or yoyo tasks when
one can plan to land way before sunset or can abort the task. But this
does not work for long O&R and triangle tasks, especially in the great
basin, where weaker conditions on course can slow you down
significantly. When this happens there are only two choices, to fly
back home and potentially land after sunset, or landout in the middle
of nowhere before sunset, hope you don't break anything, then spend a
freezing night in the cockpit waiting for your retrieve.

We'd all choose to fly home, but we don't have to post that flight on
the OLC. Doug isn't suggesting you do something stupid to get some OLC
points, but he is asking you don't post flights that clearly go beyond
sunset.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:KaRQg.200456$1i1.196173@attbi_s72...
Fly your task so that you land before any known definition of sunset and

....and they'll come up with a new one.

That is the problem with the rules being changed on the fly. You submit a
flight and never know who, when and why will be scrutinizing it and for what
violations. In this atmosphere of FUD, can you guarantee that the next
flight that you submit does not break any rules -- including those that
aren't defined yet?

you will never need to worry.

Paul Remde

Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:KaRQg.200456$1i1.196173@attbi_s72...
Fly your task so that you land before any known definition of sunset and

...and they'll come up with a new one.

That is the problem with the rules being changed on the fly. You submit a
flight and never know who, when and why will be scrutinizing it and for what
violations. In this atmosphere of FUD, can you guarantee that the next
flight that you submit does not break any rules -- including those that
aren't defined yet?

This whole subtext of arbitrary rule making is becoming an Internet
myth, started and nurtured by people who assume that since they did it,
it must have been OK, and the trolls they feed with this logic. The
origin of the SSA FAR policy goes back more than a year, and is
repeatedly documented in the SSA Board Minutes. So it was not
arbitrary, or secret, or retroactive, or any of this nonsense.

Now I know most SSA members probably do not regularly review the Board
minutes, but they are published on the SSA website in the members
section. At the risk of injecting facts into an otherwise assumption
driven thread, here are the relevant quotes along with the links to the
source:

6/5/05
Agenda Item 16.0 On Line Contest Update Report

Mr. Garner reported on the work done to date on the development of a
Memorandum of
Understanding (MOU) with the On Line Contest owners concerning SSA's
participation in the
program.

During discussion, an issue of posting flights to the OLC where there
is a violation of a Federal
Aviation Administration rule (such as an airspace restriction) came to
the fore. The committee
agreed that no badge or record should be approved if the flight
involves unsporting behavior as
set out in the FAI Sporting Code. The committee also agreed that a
statement of policy on this
issue must be carefully worded. The committee asked that this issue be
referred to the Badge
and Record Committee for a policy that can ultimately be approved by
the Board of Directors.
Chairman Carswell agreed to review the draft MOU again before
proceeding. The sense of the
committee indicates the desire to proceed with an agreement with the
OLC officials.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
11. The Executive Committee asked that the Badge and Record Committee
be asked for a
statement of policy concerning the disallowance of any badge or record
flight that
involves the violation of an FAR.

http://www.ssa.org/download/ExCom_2005_Jun_05_Final.pdf

9/30/05
Agenda Item 11.0 SSA/OLC/FARs

Mr. Garner reported on the discussions that had taken place prior to
the meeting concerning the
issue of possible violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
in flights posted on the
On-Line Contest (OLC), flying in SSA sanctioned contests, and flying
for badges and records.
This issue would be further discussed at the meeting of the Board of
Directors.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-Final...tes%209-30.pdf

10/1/05
Agenda Item 9.0 Vice Chair Member Services & Information (Garner)

Mr. Garner reported on the On Line Contest (OLC). He advised a MOU had
been signed which
gives SSA exclusive right to the OLC in the U.S. This included hang
gliders as well. SSA did not
write the rules, just administer them. He reported that some flights
had been posted which
showed possible violations of FARs. He requested that a written policy
be adopted addressing
this problem.

A lengthy discussion ensued and Mr. Spratt moved to table the
discussion of this and form a task
force to recommend SSA policy on FARs. Mr. Reid seconded the motion and
it passed 14 in
favor, 7 against.

Mr. Reid moved the SSA adopt as official policy to FAR violations "The
policy of the SSA is
that FARs must be observed." Mr. Mockler seconded the motion, and it
passed unanimously.
A task force to study the application of this policy was formed with
Mr. Reid as Chairman, and
members, Ms. Brickner, Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Garner.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2005_Oct_01_draft.pdf

12/10/05
Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The
enforcement policy was then discussed at length, the provisions of
which were generally agreed
to. The committee asked that a sub-committee of the Badge and Record
Committee be
established to enforce this policy and to report to the Board of
Directors on the number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy. The policy will be
mounted on the web site.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
7. A sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee will be
established to enforce the
policy on FAR violations, and report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

2/3/06
Agenda Item 7.0 - Vice Chair - Reid
.. . .
Reid reported on detailed implementation of the SSA s general policy
that FARs must be
observed and referred to the draft motion in the Board Book. After
discussion, Reid
proposed and Hines seconded the following motion - "The SSA Board of
Directors can,
at its discretion, review the circumstances involving any flight and
can, at its discretion
after receiving the advice of any responsible committee, take any
action at any time it
deems appropriate". After discussion, the motion was passed with one
vote against.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2006_Feb_03_draft.pdf

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I have a crazy, wild suggestion.... Fly your task so that you land before
any known definition of sunset and you will never need to worry. That is
what most pilots do. Those that do not are not playing fair - in my
opinion.

Paul Remde

I have a crazy suggestion too. It is absolutely clear the FAA rules
about what constitutes daylight flying are very much open to debate.
They weren't designed to make a level playing field for a glider
competition which is what you and Doug and a number of others want to
use them for. It's clear that all this talk about glider pilots getting
a bad rep, etc, etc is hogwash. You actually think some people are
cheating and you're using the FAA as an excuse to win the point.

So. If the SSA-OLC believes there ought to be a rule about how late a
qualifying flight can end, then it needs TO MAKE ITS OWN RULES! I don't
see why anybody should fly a competition conservatively and using the
FAA as a crutch - as Doug attempted to do - isn't going to work.

So. Paul, Doug, Al, everybody else. Stand on your own feet. Make some
rules. YOUR OWN RULES! Make a decision and defend it! Or else stop
the jaw-flapping. Stop hanging off the FAA!

Can I suggest you do the same WRT 18000feet and SUA boundaries.

The FAA's rules aren't designed to make a fair glider competition.
They're designed to keep pilots safe. If you want to run a competition
where all this stuff is measured to the inch and the second in complete
defiance of commonsense, have the guts to make your own rules. Stop
using the FAA as an excuse.

GC



"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of
soaring flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from
home or at altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead
and landed on time.
And exactly which time would that be, Paul?

You seem to have lost track of the story so far:
Doug wants to be able to pick illegal flights on OLC but he's having
trouble deciding which flights are illegal because he doesn't know when
it's "sunset" (as 'un'defined in the FARs) at all the places OLC flights
go to. Last night two astronomers locked horns and are heading for the
jugular over when sunset might be.

Now read on:

I know this won't help but in Oz the rules a
1. "Night" is the period between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight.
2. CASA (FAA equivalent) publishes beginning and end of daylight graphs
for latitudes from 0 to 45 throughout the year.
3. Daylight flight occurs between those times after converting local time
to Standard/Daylight Time.

Note that daylight "ceases" at a particular longitude solely dependent on
its latitude. No allowance for terrain, etc.

But the following is also in the AIP:
"Users ... should note that the parameters used in compiling the ...
Graphs do not include the nature of the terrain ... other than a cloudless
sky and unlimited visibility ... Consequently, the presence of cloud
cover, poor visibility or high terrain to the west of an aerodrome will
cause daylight to end ... earlier than that extracted from the appropriate
graph.
Allowance should made for these factors when planning a flight..."

The rules are reasonable but are no help in maintaining a level playing
field for a gliding competition.

So, Doug. Make up your mind what arbitrary rule you would like to
implement for the SSA-OLC and publish it. Let's say - evening civil
twilight at the latitude.

Stop using the FAA as an excuse and a crutch. Stand on your own feet.
Make a rule. Publish it. Enforce it. Cop the flak.

GC

Graeme Cant wrote:

I have a crazy suggestion too.

So do I. How about if you actually join the community first by
registering for the OLC and then posting some flights, before you jump
in and start telling us what we should or should not be doing.

Graeme Cant wrote:
Paul Remde wrote:

I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of soaring
flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from home or at
altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead and landed on
time.

And exactly which time would that be, Paul?

The time calculated by the USNO, the "the preeminent authority in the
areas of Precise Time and Astrometry" (at least in the US).

You seem to have lost track of the story so far:
Doug wants to be able to pick illegal flights on OLC but he's having
trouble deciding which flights are illegal because he doesn't know when
it's "sunset" (as 'un'defined in the FARs) at all the places OLC flights
go to.

First, how dare you decide what I "want" based on what? If you look at
the subject line, and the original post to this thread, a reasonable
person would conclude that I do not want to do as you insinuate, and am
trying to warn pilots in advance, so it does not become a bigger issue.


Now read on:

I know this won't help but in Oz the rules a
1. "Night" is the period between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight.
2. CASA (FAA equivalent) publishes beginning and end of daylight graphs
for latitudes from 0 to 45 throughout the year.
3. Daylight flight occurs between those times after converting local
time to Standard/Daylight Time.

Note that daylight "ceases" at a particular longitude solely dependent
on its latitude. No allowance for terrain, etc.

And the date of course. This is based on the zenith angle of the sun.

But the following is also in the AIP:
"Users ... should note that the parameters used in compiling the ...
Graphs do not include the nature of the terrain ... other than a
cloudless sky and unlimited visibility ... Consequently, the presence
of cloud cover, poor visibility or high terrain to the west of an
aerodrome will cause daylight to end ... earlier than that extracted
from the appropriate graph.
Allowance should made for these factors when planning a flight..."

Yes, and all of these factors make sunset earlier, not later than
predicted by the standard formula for almost all normal soaring
flights. Unless you are flying off of a west facing beach in Winter,
sunset will be earlier than predicted because the horizon will be
higher, and the refraction will be less because the atmosphere is less
dense than standard sea level.

The rules are reasonable but are no help in maintaining a level playing
field for a gliding competition.

So, Doug. Make up your mind what arbitrary rule you would like to
implement for the SSA-OLC and publish it. Let's say - evening civil
twilight at the latitude.

This is similarly an insulting insinuation. First off, I am not making
the rules, just trying to follow the direction the Committee and I have
been given by the Board. The direction is clear; the flight must end by
sunset, unless approved lighting was used, and this is noted in the
comments section of the OLC claim.

Stop using the FAA as an excuse and a crutch. Stand on your own feet.
Make a rule. Publish it. Enforce it. Cop the flak.

Done. Done. and being Done.

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

If you look at
the subject line, and the original post to this thread, a reasonable
person would conclude that I ... am
trying to warn pilots in advance, so it does not become a bigger issue.

Just to keep the facts straight, let's say that "in advance" is a bit of an
exaggeration on Doug's part. The thread with the subject "...Warning..." was
posted *after* several flights were suddenly found to appear to be in
violation of the sunset rule.

Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

If you look at
the subject line, and the original post to this thread, a reasonable
person would conclude that I ... am
trying to warn pilots in advance, so it does not become a bigger issue.

Just to keep the facts straight, let's say that "in advance" is a bit of an
exaggeration on Doug's part. The thread with the subject "...Warning..." was
posted *after* several flights were suddenly found to appear to be in
violation of the sunset rule.

Yes, and the original post says that too. It's a warning to anyone else
who may think that it's OK to follow in your footsteps.

Paul Remde wrote:

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com.

Given the uncertainty of the actual official sunset time I repeat my
request that SAA's sunset time be used only to determine the "end of
soaring flight" and not used to determine the validity of the entire
flight.

I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of soaring
flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from home or at
altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead and landed on
time.

I think calling sunset the end of soaring flight for the OLC is fine if
the pilot is given a few minutes more to land. If the flight continues
beyond that it could be considered sufficient evidence of poor planning,
or bad faith, and the whole flight automatically disallowed.

"SS + 0:05" might work for everybody in determining when to disqualify
an entire flight, and not require the services of both defense counsel
and a battery of astronomers just to mollify a nanny SSA-OLC.

And who cares how far from home the pilot is? Let him land out and walk
home, as long as the ship touched down within a few minutes of whatever
"FAA Official Sunset" might have been at that place and time. There are
no declarations necessary, nor is OLC an assigned task. Next thing we
know, we'll be needing Official Observers.


Jack