NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:58:00 -0700, "NW_Pilot"
wrote in
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 16:01:55 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote in :

The Garmin audio panel in our planes has a nifty feature. If the panel is
powered down, the pilot's headset is connected to COM1. Thus,
communication survives the failure of the audio panel.

It would be interesting to know how VHF communications were affected
in Mr. Rhine's mishap.


Ever time the system rebooted I had VHF comms for a few min + I had the Ham
Radio!


So when the Garmin system went down, other than HF Communications
provided by a portable transceiver, and the flight controls, the only
other functional instruments and operable systems you had were the OAT
thermometer, EGT, magnetic compass, attitude indicator, altimeter,
intermittent tachometer and airspeed indicator? No navigation
equipment, auto pilot, VHF communications, fuel gages, engine oil
pressure nor temperature gages? Have I finally got it right?

So when the Garmin system went down, other than HF Communications
provided by a portable transceiver, and the flight controls, the only
other functional instruments and operable systems you had were the OAT
thermometer, EGT, magnetic compass, attitude indicator, altimeter,
intermittent tachometer and airspeed indicator? No navigation
equipment, auto pilot, VHF communications, fuel gages, engine oil
pressure nor temperature gages? Have I finally got it right?


When the system went down the only things I had was My Portable GPS, HF Com,
Portable VHF Com, Steam Attitude Indicator, Steam Airspeed Indicator, Steam
Altimeter, Whiskey Compass! Every thing else was tied to the G1000 and was
useless or not to be trusted as accurate in that situation. They don't even
have a slip/skid ball in the thing when the G1000 goes blink that's
intergraded also!

I believe after this incident as we see the fleet of G1000 equipped aircraft
age in the next few years there will be many fatalities and/or class action
suite's and whole generation of pilots not prepared for this type of systems
loss!

I hope that this garmin problem never happens to another pilot (I have a
feeling it will and it makes me angry) I am glad I practice partial panel
and have been ferrying airplanes the last year and have gained the skills to
deal with problems such as this. I know it could have gone the opposite
direction really fast and I thank my lucky stars I was able to keep my cool,
work the problem, make the competent decisions and use the resources
available to me to make it in safe!

I like the Avidyne system a lot better at leased if the PFD & MFD fail you
have Comm's, Autopilot, And GPS Navigation all separate! But I only have 10
hours at the controls on a new Piper to make that opinion on the Avidyne
system witch is not enough!

Before everyone jumps all over Garmin keep in mind that what caused
this was the auxilary fuel tank! It created a condition that the Garmin
unit could not handle. But the stock Cessna setup would never create
this condition! I think the real blame here has to be on the auxilary
fuel design. There are LOTS of these Garmin units out there working
very well, very few complaints at all. ALL of the new Cessnas have them
and they are WORKING!

Also keep in mind that the backup systems did work here. He was able to
fly the aircraft on the instruments he had.

NW_Pilot wrote:


So when the Garmin system went down, other than HF Communications
provided by a portable transceiver, and the flight controls, the only
other functional instruments and operable systems you had were the OAT
thermometer, EGT, magnetic compass, attitude indicator, altimeter,
intermittent tachometer and airspeed indicator? No navigation
equipment, auto pilot, VHF communications, fuel gages, engine oil
pressure nor temperature gages? Have I finally got it right?


When the system went down the only things I had was My Portable GPS, HF Com,
Portable VHF Com, Steam Attitude Indicator, Steam Airspeed Indicator, Steam
Altimeter, Whiskey Compass! Every thing else was tied to the G1000 and was
useless or not to be trusted as accurate in that situation. They don't even
have a slip/skid ball in the thing when the G1000 goes blink that's
intergraded also!

I believe after this incident as we see the fleet of G1000 equipped aircraft
age in the next few years there will be many fatalities and/or class action
suite's and whole generation of pilots not prepared for this type of systems
loss!

I hope that this garmin problem never happens to another pilot (I have a
feeling it will and it makes me angry) I am glad I practice partial panel
and have been ferrying airplanes the last year and have gained the skills to
deal with problems such as this. I know it could have gone the opposite
direction really fast and I thank my lucky stars I was able to keep my cool,
work the problem, make the competent decisions and use the resources
available to me to make it in safe!

I like the Avidyne system a lot better at leased if the PFD & MFD fail you
have Comm's, Autopilot, And GPS Navigation all separate! But I only have 10
hours at the controls on a new Piper to make that opinion on the Avidyne
system witch is not enough!

"Doug" wrote:
Before everyone jumps all over Garmin keep in mind that what caused
this was the auxilary fuel tank! It created a condition that the Garmin
unit could not handle.

I do write software for a living. From what (little) information is
available to us, it sounds like the G1000 got an unexpected sensor reading
and that caused a total system crash. That should never happen. No
external input to a program (especially one where human lives depend on it)
should ever crash because of bad input.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Doug" wrote:
Before everyone jumps all over Garmin keep in mind that what caused
this was the auxilary fuel tank! It created a condition that the Garmin
unit could not handle.

I do write software for a living. From what (little) information is
available to us, it sounds like the G1000 got an unexpected sensor reading
and that caused a total system crash. That should never happen. No
external input to a program (especially one where human lives depend on
it)
should ever crash because of bad input.

I agree!

But the stock Cessna setup would never create
this condition!

That statement is laughable. All it takes is a stuck gauge.

In this case the stuck gauge was caused (I'm of course Monday morning
quarterbacking) by the overpressure in the fuel tank, which was caused
by the aux fuel system. HOWEVER, there are many other sources of stuck
gauges, and to say that "it will never fail" is ludicrous.

Aviation systems are supposed to be =robust=, which means fault
tolerant. Even =many= fault tolerant.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:51:19 GMT, Jose
wrote in :

In this case the stuck gauge was caused (I'm of course Monday morning
quarterbacking) by the overpressure in the fuel tank, which was caused
by the aux fuel system.

I find it difficult to believe that the pressure in the wing tank(s)
was significant, but if it were, imagine what might have happened if
the fuel bladder(s) had ruptured, worse yet, if the hydraulic pressure
of the fuel against the wing structure had started popping rivets!

I find it difficult to believe that the pressure in the wing tank(s)
was significant,

Ok, "overpressure" is the wrong word, but it pumped gas into an overfull
tank causing the fuel to go overboard and read "more than full".

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 18:01:50 GMT, Jose
wrote in :


I find it difficult to believe that the pressure in the wing tank(s)
was significant,

Ok, "overpressure" is the wrong word,

That is how the pilot described it, so I'm not so sure of exactly what
the situation actually was.

but it pumped gas into an overfull
tank causing the fuel to go overboard and read "more than full".

While the wing tank did lose fuel through its drain system, I believe
it stopped "reading" all together. Where did Mr. Rhine indicate in
his narrative, that it was "reading" more than full?


After switching to the aircraft fuel (from the ferry tank) strange
things started happening. The 100-gallon ferry tank went dry
after only 7 hours, burning 8 to 9 gallons per hour! Something
just did not add up...
[...]


Then, the G1000 started to go nuts, with the fuel indicators
displaying red X's. Next, I received a CO2 detector failure, then
GPS-1 failure!
[...]


When the G1000 got done rebooting, I found myself missing my
airspeed indicator and fuel gauges -- and it was now displaying a
bunch of other errors. Assessing my situation, I figured that I
had no fuel gauges, the G1000 is continually rebooting, possible
CO2 in the cabin, AND an apparent fuel leak!
[...]


As I grind closer and closer to Narsarsuaq, at about 60 miles out
they send up a rescue chopper, locate me, and guide me in, since
I am unable to make the NDB approach with the G1000 rebooting
itself. (The ADF display is tied to the G1000's HSI.)
[...]


[Day 3]
We finally figured out that the instructions for the ferry tank
were not correct, and really need to be changed before the company
installing the tank kills someone.


The problem was the ferry tank's fuel return line was over
pressurizing the aircraft tanks, causing fuel to vent overboard.
To prevent this, what needed to be done was to FIRST run the
aircraft's left tank down till it was almost empty, THEN turn on
the ferry tank.


The instructions with the ferry tank said only to "Climb to
altitude, then switch to the ferry tank and turn off the aircraft
fuel", then run it till the fuel level hits a mark on the ferry
tank's fuel level indicator. These instructions turned out to be
totally incorrect!


Even Cessna engineering was surprised that the FAA had approved
the instructions for the ferry tank setup, because it also caused
the G1000 to go nuts. Apparently the added pressure in the fuel
tanks pushed the floats in the fuel tank up, which got the Garmin
confused, causing an error that made it reboot. The loss of the
airspeed indicator was caused by fuel vapors entering the pitot
tube -- which also caused the CO2 detector failure!
[...]


[Day 11]
Then the tach started being erratic, saying that my RPMs were 4000
-- yeah, right! Then it went Red X. OK, Garmin & Cessna, you
need to have better quality control. After everything else that
has happened, this makes me not want to every own a newer model
Cessna, or anything with a G1000.

It's difficult to understand how fuel got into the pitot system, given
the placement of the fuel vent and the pitot mast. If the new
Skyhawks don't have fuel balders any longer, perhaps the pitot
plumbing was routed through the wing tank, and the increased pressure
was adequate to cause fuel to seep past the plumbing fittings.

The Garmin unit can handle a stuck guage. THAT has been tested and
accounted for.

Jose wrote:
But the stock Cessna setup would never create
this condition!

That statement is laughable. All it takes is a stuck gauge.

In this case the stuck gauge was caused (I'm of course Monday morning
quarterbacking) by the overpressure in the fuel tank, which was caused
by the aux fuel system. HOWEVER, there are many other sources of stuck
gauges, and to say that "it will never fail" is ludicrous.

Aviation systems are supposed to be =robust=, which means fault
tolerant. Even =many= fault tolerant.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.