NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

"Doug" wrote:
Before everyone jumps all over Garmin keep in mind that what caused
this was the auxilary fuel tank! It created a condition that the Garmin
unit could not handle.

I do write software for a living. From what (little) information is
available to us, it sounds like the G1000 got an unexpected sensor reading
and that caused a total system crash. That should never happen. No
external input to a program (especially one where human lives depend on it)
should ever crash because of bad input.

I know it could have gone the opposite
direction really fast

.... and nobody would ever have known why.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

But the stock Cessna setup would never create
this condition!

That statement is laughable. All it takes is a stuck gauge.

In this case the stuck gauge was caused (I'm of course Monday morning
quarterbacking) by the overpressure in the fuel tank, which was caused
by the aux fuel system. HOWEVER, there are many other sources of stuck
gauges, and to say that "it will never fail" is ludicrous.

Aviation systems are supposed to be =robust=, which means fault
tolerant. Even =many= fault tolerant.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

well, actually, the way i understand it the only reason he got out of
this alive was that he had a back-up handheld gps that pointed him to
an airport. it really looks like if he would have only had what garmin
and cessna put in that plane he very well may not have made it.

dan


Doug wrote:

(((( SNIP)))


There are LOTS of these Garmin units out there working
very well, very few complaints at all. ALL of the new Cessnas have them
and they are WORKING!

Also keep in mind that the backup systems did work here. He was able to
fly the aircraft on the instruments he had.

On 5 Oct 2006 03:09:48 -0700, "Doug"
wrote in .com:

Before everyone jumps all over Garmin keep in mind that what caused
this was the auxilary fuel tank!

First, let me say, that I am a fan of Garmin products; I'm
particularly impressed with their logical user interface.

I would characterize the aux tanks role as only _precipitating_ the
Garmin equipment failure.

It created a condition that the Garmin unit could not handle.

Lacking evidence to the contrary at this time, there is little doubt
in my mind, that the Garmin design, with it's lack of redundancy and
over integration of systems, when faced with an out of range sensor
input took out all navigation, communications, and other systems
functionality. Such design strategy is gravely flawed, and borders on
criminal negligence.

But the stock Cessna setup would never create this condition!

How did you reach that questionable conclusion?

I think the real blame here has to be on the auxilary fuel design.

While the aux fuel tank system design has its shortcomings, for a
one-time use mission, it is acceptable, IMO. The true culprits are
the flawed instructions for its use, and the incompetence of the staff
who were responsible for its installation, as well as the FAA
personnel who certified it.

There are LOTS of these Garmin units out there working
very well, very few complaints at all. ALL of the new Cessnas have them
and they are WORKING!

Be that as it may, they are a ticking time bomb, IMO.

Also keep in mind that the backup systems did work here. He was able to
fly the aircraft on the instruments he had.

That was a result of Mr. Rhine's foresight in equipping his flight
with portable devices to supplement the Garmin equipment, and the helo
that guided him through the instrument approach. Without that help
and equipment, it is very unlikely the outcome would have been the
same.

If you disagree, please explain how you'd have navigate 200 miles in
IMC, and execute an instrument approach with only compass, airspeed,
altimeter and attitude indicator.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:51:19 GMT, Jose
wrote in :

In this case the stuck gauge was caused (I'm of course Monday morning
quarterbacking) by the overpressure in the fuel tank, which was caused
by the aux fuel system.

I find it difficult to believe that the pressure in the wing tank(s)
was significant, but if it were, imagine what might have happened if
the fuel bladder(s) had ruptured, worse yet, if the hydraulic pressure
of the fuel against the wing structure had started popping rivets!

Ross Richardson wrote:
Emily wrote:
Andrew Gideon wrote:

On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 17:04:27 -0500, Emily wrote:

Eh, as a CFI, I really don't care where I sit.


Well...you've a solution, then. You can be in a relationship with a
pilot as long as he is not a CFI. You get right, he gets left, nothing
remains open for discussion.

I know several single male non-CFI pilots, if you're interested in an
introduction. However, I can provide no guarantees that any would never
achieve a CFI (which is a flaw in my little scheme, I admit).

rec.aviation.piloting.matches anyone?

Laugh


You guys are too funny.

Within 100nm of DAL, please.


So, you are a Texan?

Transplanted, at least.

emily, emily, emily...yer 'sposed to say "no, is wasn't born here but i
got here as fast as i could". it's in the state constitution right
next to the recipe for jalapeno peanut butter!

dan


Emily wrote(( snip )))

So, you are a Texan?

Transplanted, at least.

"Doug" writes:

Before everyone jumps all over Garmin keep in mind that what caused
this was the auxilary fuel tank! It created a condition that the Garmin
unit could not handle. But the stock Cessna setup would never create
this condition! [...]

Given that the fuel vapor return line goes to the left tank, I wonder
what happens on these newfangled 172s if one flies off of the right
tank for quite some time.

- FChE

The Garmin unit can handle a stuck guage. THAT has been tested and
accounted for.

Jose wrote:
But the stock Cessna setup would never create
this condition!

That statement is laughable. All it takes is a stuck gauge.

In this case the stuck gauge was caused (I'm of course Monday morning
quarterbacking) by the overpressure in the fuel tank, which was caused
by the aux fuel system. HOWEVER, there are many other sources of stuck
gauges, and to say that "it will never fail" is ludicrous.

Aviation systems are supposed to be =robust=, which means fault
tolerant. Even =many= fault tolerant.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.