Flying patterns

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:00:14 +0200, Stefan
wrote:

Yes, from a regulatory point of view they *do* matter even to an IFR
pilot. Whether airspaces are depicted on your chart or not doesn't
matter at all, you're supposed to know in which airspace class you fly.

OK, I'll bite: What difference does it make for the conduct of my
flight whether I am in class C, D or E? As others have pointed out
already, you are required to separate yourself from every aircraft you
can see, no matter which airspace you are flying in.

Tobias

Tobias Schnell schrieb:

OK, I'll bite: What difference does it make for the conduct of my
flight whether I am in class C, D or E? As others have pointed out
already, you are required to separate yourself from every aircraft you
can see, no matter which airspace you are flying in.

In class C and "above", ATC is supposed to separate you from VFR
traffic. In class D and "below", you know that you will not be separated
from VFR traffic. Now while you are supposed to look out of the window
in both cases, this *will* inevitably influence your mindset.

And it *will* influence the outcome in court. (This may or may not be of
any interest to you at that point.) I tend to believe that it goes even
further: While you theoretically are supposed to look out of the window
in clas C, you are also supposed to trust and rely on ATC. Otherwise, it
wouldn't be possible to fly in IMC at all.

Stefan

Mxsmanic wrote:
I have no money

You might save some by dropping your web site http://www.mxsmanic.com/.
I'm not sure how you are paying for ISP access and giganews.com access -
dropping these would presumably free up money.

or time

People sink a great amount of time into Usenet. There exist many ways to
reduce or even eliminate the time spent on these groups, which can be
devoted to other pursuits.

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Neil Gould writes:

You have been told you are wrong by MANY PILOTS of REAL AIRPLANES.
That should carry some weight, considering that you are neither a
pilot nor have you taken any flight lessons.

It carries _some_ weight, but I learned decades ago to be extremely
wary of people who claim to be right on the basis of credentials
alone. Trusting what people say has gotten me into trouble on many
occasions, and so I no longer trust anything without some sort of
independent corroboration.

Of which you have had plenty of whatever type you feel relevant, and you
still persist in posting false statements.

However, you have also been PROVEN
wrong by MANY PILOTS who have posted the relevant regulations and
references.

The regulations I see don't say quite the same things that the pilots
are saying.

The official regulations certainly do agree with what we are saying, as do
the excerpts posted by various members of this newsgroup. If you don't see
that, then you simply don't understand the regulations (which I would find
quite likely, given your status).

Neil

Sylvain writes:

on that point you are set: all the books you need to
study to get up to speed on the theory are available
for free from the FAA website (links already provided);

Yes ... I've already found some of them, and they are quite
interesting. And they are free. I saw one of them in the pilot's
shop, and it was something like $40, even though it was nothing more
than the electronic version on paper.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Jim Logajan writes:

You might save some by dropping your web site http://www.mxsmanic.com/.
I'm not sure how you are paying for ISP access and giganews.com access -
dropping these would presumably free up money.

I host my own Web sites. The Internet access saves much more than it
costs.

People sink a great amount of time into Usenet. There exist many ways to
reduce or even eliminate the time spent on these groups, which can be
devoted to other pursuits.

If I spent no time at all on USENET, it still would not free enough
time to undertake flying for real.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Steve Foley writes:

That's because the regulations were written by FAA lawyers. The pilots have
been trying to state them in plain english.

The version written by the lawyers is the only official version.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:00:15 +0200, Stefan
wrote:

In class C and "above", ATC is supposed to separate you from VFR
traffic. In class D and "below", you know that you will not be separated
from VFR traffic. Now while you are supposed to look out of the window
in both cases, this *will* inevitably influence your mindset.

It probably will. Not because of the subtle distinction regarding
separation, but rather because there should be no unknown VFR-traffic
and especially no gliders in anything from "D" and above. Most
controllers separate everyone from everyone in "D" anyway.

But that's why I was talking about the regulatory aspect. In that
sense, airspace classification is not relevant to IFR flying.

And it *will* influence the outcome in court.

How so? Apart from that, staying clear of other aircraft is of
literally such vital importance that legalities are the last thing on
my mind when an "ugly" situation develops.

I tend to believe that it goes even
further: While you theoretically are supposed to look out of the window
in clas C, you are also supposed to trust and rely on ATC. Otherwise, it
wouldn't be possible to fly in IMC at all.

Sure. But that's not the way the regs are written.

Tobias

Second marriages...

" How many times do you have to be told that you are WRONG about THE SAME
THING before it sinks in?

What's the definition of insanity?

Mxsmanic,

The discussion concerns IFR traffic (as Thomas said),


Never, ever did I say such a thing.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)