Stop the noise

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 05:24:25 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"


Time for a reality check.

That's the way it is. The ball's in your court. Unless the aviation
community
and perhaps the FAA can work out a helpful response,.the path is going to
be
regrettably clear.

The reality is that you do not have a Constitutional right to control the
airspace above your property. The Supreme Court has already ruled on that
and it is unlikely that this will ever be reversed.

The reality is that pilots have as much right to enjoy their property as you
have to enjoy yours.

The reality is that aerobatics is an art form and probably Constitutionally
protected freedom of expression.

Efforts to legislate or sue aerobatics out of existence are probably a
fruitless waste of time and money that will not solve the problem of
aircraft noise and probably sour relations between property owners and
pilots even further. The inability to come to a judicial or legislative
solution will probably result in violence on both sides. That is the path
which is regrettably clear. I think that we all would like to prevent that,
so perhaps a different approach is needed.

The reality is also that pilots are painfully aware of noise problems and
most of us would like to do almost anything to avoid them. We are homeowners
and property owners, too, you know, and a disproportionately large number of
us do live near airports.

You might start asking why we have aerobatics boxes in the first place.
After all, why should every aerobatics pilot in the area be forced to
practice over your house? Why is the problem concentrated there? Maybe what
we need to do is to stop being so restrictive about where people practice
aerobatics -- spread the problem around so that it is not excessively
annoying to anyone. Unfortunately, the effect of organizations like Stop the
Noise has been to concentrate the noise still further, making the lives of
people who live in these areas even more unbearable than it was before. Stop
the Noise and organizations like it are definitely a big part of the
problem. They created this problem in the first place and are making it
worse every day. You might want to think about that before starting your own
chapter of Stop the Noise.

"C J Campbell" writes:

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 05:24:25 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"


Time for a reality check.

That's the way it is. The ball's in your court. Unless the aviation
community
and perhaps the FAA can work out a helpful response,.the path is going to
be
regrettably clear.

The reality is that you do not have a Constitutional right to control the
airspace above your property. The Supreme Court has already ruled on that
and it is unlikely that this will ever be reversed.

The reality is that pilots have as much right to enjoy their property as you
have to enjoy yours.

The reality is that aerobatics is an art form and probably Constitutionally
protected freedom of expression.

(...)

You know, I always wonder how much damage we as pilots are doing to
ourselves by brandishing arguments like that.

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs, then we are shooting ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

-jav

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" writes:

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 05:24:25 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"


Time for a reality check.

That's the way it is. The ball's in your court. Unless the aviation
community
and perhaps the FAA can work out a helpful response,.the path is going
to
be
regrettably clear.

The reality is that you do not have a Constitutional right to control
the
airspace above your property. The Supreme Court has already ruled on
that
and it is unlikely that this will ever be reversed.

The reality is that pilots have as much right to enjoy their property as
you
have to enjoy yours.

The reality is that aerobatics is an art form and probably
Constitutionally
protected freedom of expression.

(...)

You know, I always wonder how much damage we as pilots are doing to
ourselves by brandishing arguments like that.

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs, then we are shooting ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

Acting like Campbell is why FAA no longer has any credibility in the US WRT
noise. It is much better to help fix the man's noise problem than to fight
a battle you can only lose.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing
injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs, then we are shooting
ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such
transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

Acting like Campbell is why FAA no longer has any credibility in the US
WRT
noise. It is much better to help fix the man's noise problem than to
fight
a battle you can only lose.

Neither one of you clowns read the whole post. It is especially funny to
hear Tarver talking about others lacking credibility, however.

If you had read the whole post, you would have noticed that I did not excuse
the Pitts pilot or anybody else. I said that noise was a problem, but that
organizations like Stop the Noise actually make the problem worse rather
than better. What I said was that we need a whole new approach to the way we
are dealing with noise issues. What is being done now is obviously not
working and is probably making the problem worse.

I strenuously object to your taking a few words out of context and
re-phrasing them to say something the exact opposite of what I intended.
However, based on your previous posts, I certainly am not surprised. You are
idiots, no question about it. Worse, you have no integrity whatsoever.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing
injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs, then we are shooting
ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such
transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

Acting like Campbell is why FAA no longer has any credibility in the US
WRT
noise. It is much better to help fix the man's noise problem than to
fight
a battle you can only lose.

Neither one of you clowns read the whole post. It is especially funny to
hear Tarver talking about others lacking credibility, however.

It is very odd that you would write something so clueless Campbell,
especially after you went all the way to the FSDO to prove me correct about
the POH being part of the Type Certificate of an airplane.

snip of nothing of substance

I strenuously object to your taking a few words out of context and
re-phrasing them to say something the exact opposite of what I intended.
However, based on your previous posts, I certainly am not surprised. You
are
idiots, no question about it. Worse, you have no integrity whatsoever.

I stated the true fact of the matter and you don't like it, but that is not
my problem.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel
the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing
injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs, then we are shooting
ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such
transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

Acting like Campbell is why FAA no longer has any credibility in the
US
WRT
noise. It is much better to help fix the man's noise problem than to
fight
a battle you can only lose.

Neither one of you clowns read the whole post. It is especially funny to
hear Tarver talking about others lacking credibility, however.

It is very odd that you would write something so clueless Campbell,
especially after you went all the way to the FSDO to prove me correct
about
the POH being part of the Type Certificate of an airplane.

snip of nothing of substance

I strenuously object to your taking a few words out of context and
re-phrasing them to say something the exact opposite of what I intended.
However, based on your previous posts, I certainly am not surprised. You
are
idiots, no question about it. Worse, you have no integrity whatsoever.

I stated the true fact of the matter and you don't like it, but that is
not
my problem.



It is your problem if you lie about it, just as you are also lying about my
going to the FSDO about the POH. I never did any such thing. I don't even
remember arguing with you about the subject. It is not something that I
think I would care much about. Near as I can tell you are again
misrepresenting my views and actions.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel
the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing
injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs, then we are shooting
ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such
transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

Acting like Campbell is why FAA no longer has any credibility in the
US
WRT
noise. It is much better to help fix the man's noise problem than to
fight
a battle you can only lose.

Neither one of you clowns read the whole post. It is especially funny to
hear Tarver talking about others lacking credibility, however.

It is very odd that you would write something so clueless Campbell,
especially after you went all the way to the FSDO to prove me correct
about
the POH being part of the Type Certificate of an airplane.

Wow!! You're 1 for 24. Now want to finish your explanation of "Rare Yen"?

snip of nothing of substance

You don't have a clue what "substance" is.


I strenuously object to your taking a few words out of context and
re-phrasing them to say something the exact opposite of what I intended.
However, based on your previous posts, I certainly am not surprised. You
are
idiots, no question about it. Worse, you have no integrity whatsoever.

I stated the true fact of the matter and you don't like it, but that is
not
my problem.

You didn't state a single "fact".

You can memorize volumes, I've noticed, but your comprehension is minimal.

"C J Campbell" writes:

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing
injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs, then we are shooting
ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such
transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

Acting like Campbell is why FAA no longer has any credibility in the US
WRT
noise. It is much better to help fix the man's noise problem than to
fight
a battle you can only lose.

Neither one of you clowns read the whole post. It is especially funny to
hear Tarver talking about others lacking credibility, however.

If you had read the whole post, you would have noticed that I did not excuse
the Pitts pilot or anybody else. I said that noise was a problem, but that
organizations like Stop the Noise actually make the problem worse rather
than better. What I said was that we need a whole new approach to the way we
are dealing with noise issues. What is being done now is obviously not
working and is probably making the problem worse.

I strenuously object to your taking a few words out of context and
re-phrasing them to say something the exact opposite of what I intended.
However, based on your previous posts, I certainly am not surprised. You are
idiots, no question about it. Worse, you have no integrity whatsoever.

Ahm...can you tone down your drivel a tad? Specifically, the personal
attacks. I don't recall having done that to you in the past.

Now, I picked your three arguments and replied to just those because
that's all I wanted to comment on. I have seen those same arguments
used by others before, and I'm always left wondering if we're doing
ourselves more harm by attempting to either shift blame, or by
basically saying "we were here first". Yeah, maybe we were, but if
we're in the minority (and in most cases, we are) then we only make
our uphill quest that much steeper.

-jav

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...

Ahm...can you tone down your drivel a tad? Specifically, the personal
attacks. I don't recall having done that to you in the past.

Actually, I thought your post was a personal attack. I certainly took it
that way.


Now, I picked your three arguments and replied to just those because
that's all I wanted to comment on. I have seen those same arguments
used by others before,

Anything untrue about them? All I am saying is that the legal remedies
sought by Stop the Noise are a waste of time and money and likely to produce
nothing that will help solve the problem. If I was considering starting a
Stop the Noise chapter I would sure want to know about that.

I think there are things that can be done to reduce the noise problem but it
appears that the only possible 'solutions' anyone is willing to look at are
those that move the noise somewhere else, like Montana or, preferably, the
far side of the moon. That being the case, I don't see things improving for
a long time.

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" writes:

The reality is that aerobatics is an art form and probably
Constitutionally
protected freedom of expression.

(...)

You know, I always wonder how much damage we as pilots are doing to
ourselves by brandishing arguments like that.

Odd, isn't it, that tantrums in the media haven't had a deleterious effect?

I thought the original message was well written and I didn't feel the
poster was on a rampage.

If the facts presented are true, like the guy in a Pitts causing injuries
to livestock and other low level buzz jobs,

Is that the case here?

then we are shooting ourselves
in our collective foot if we as a group cry foul when such transgressions
happen and are brought out for discussion.

-jav