How often do you have to go around?

Ron Natalie writes:

You should plan better so you aren't running down the (I believe it
is a 182).

Heck, I couldn't even see the Cessna until it was about a quarter-mile
away. I spent a long time searching for it.

I think one problem is that I was not flying the pattern correctly.
The Cessna pulled in front of me. I'm still not clear on how long
each leg of the pattern is supposed to be, although I'm very gradually
getting better at flying a pattern without wandering all over the
place.

I don't know what kind of approaches you are making
in the game, but you should hang further back in faster aircraft.

Right now I'm just trying to fly a pattern correctly by myself. Once
I master that, I'll try to worry more about other aircraft in the
pattern.

If you passed underneath me in real life, I'd have the FAA on
short final I'd have the FAA on your ass.

That's the advantage of simulation. Mistakes in simulation cost
nothing.

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

I think one problem is that I was not flying the pattern correctly.
The Cessna pulled in front of me. I'm still not clear on how long
each leg of the pattern is supposed to be, although I'm very gradually
getting better at flying a pattern without wandering all over the
place.

I think the problem is that you are not in a REAL PLANE. You would be less
prone to wandering when you can see the world in three dimension rather
then the flat screen of a monitor.

Oh gee, there is a pilot side window, a co-pilot / passenger window and
even in some planes a rear window you can quickly glance out to assess your
situational awareness in the pattern. OF COURSE, YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THIS
SINCE YOU HAVE NOT FLOWN A REAL PLANE.

That's the advantage of simulation. Mistakes in simulation cost
nothing.

and you get no sense of accomplishment sitting in your lazy boy chair
either AFTER flying a REAL plane. After all, you are only SIMULATING what
is experienced better in a REAL plane.

Allen

wrote in
ups.com:


Mxsmanic wrote:
How often does this happen in real life? I should think and hope that
real controllers can space aircraft better so that it's rarely
necessary to abort a landing.

In a few hundred hours flying out of Hanscom (primary GA field for
Boston) I've had to go around maybe a half-dozen times, mostly for
runway-lingering by the plane in front. Once the controller sequenced
me a little too tightly. It is a very busy field on the weekends with a
lot of training to keep things messy- 5th in line to take off or land
is not unusual.

In about a half-million airline miles, mostly continental US, I've had
one go-around, on the Delta Shuttle into Boston, because the plane
ahead had not cleared the runway in time. It was a CAVU day and I'd
guess we were well inside the middle marker when they threw in the
towel.


Go-around is not only due to runway obstruction. Sometimes weather
can cause it. If you can, see the the FAA safety film "The Day All Hell
Broke Loose" using audio recorded at Denver's old airport, Stapleton. It
was CAVU with a wind shear measured at over 100 knots. About 9 or 11 (I
forget the exact number) airliners in a row went missed.

Also, I once saw thunder showers as McCarran in Las Vegas cause go-
arounds on CAVU days. I remember one where the thunder shower was less
than 1/2 mile thick. You could see the sun on the runway both in front of
and behind what looked like a sheer see-through black veil and rain
bouncing off the runway where the veil was touching it. I saw several
airliners go-around, but one landed and briefly fish-tailed while rolling
through the shower during roll out.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
How often does this happen in real life? I should think and hope that
real controllers can space aircraft better so that it's rarely
necessary to abort a landing.

Once or twice a year, and it's usually caused by something the controllers
couldn't have anticipated.

My co-pilot did a go-around yesterday. We were 7 miles in trail of the MD-80
as we turned final. 5 miles of separation is normal, so he kept the speed up
at 210 knots. A Learjet in front of the MD-80 slowed to final approach speed
around glideslope intercept which is unusual. The MD-80 remarked that he
didn't know a Lear could go that slow. The tower replied that he didn't know
it either. The MD-80 had to slow sooner than normal. We slowed too, but
seperation was down to 4 miles, which is closer than normal but still
acceptable. We could only slow to 145 kias because reports of 15 knot
windshear on short final made the FO uncomfortable with doing a full-flap
landing. After the MD-80 crossed the threshhold, the tower cleared a Delta
MD-80 into position and to be ready to go. There was a long pause for a
reply. Then the MD-80 asked the tower to confirm the instructions. The tower
then cleared the Delta flight for an immediate take-off. There was another
pause before the MD-80 started to move. Then they transmitted on top of each
other as the MD-80 read back the instructions and the tower canceled the
take-off clearance. We were at 500' and the Delta flight was just starting
to roll. The spacing was too close for the FO's comfort and we did a
go-around.

D.

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
I've had to go around maybe ~10 times in the last 20 years....not counting a
botched landing or two (or twenty :-). Most common case is a plane deciding to
taxi all they way to the end of the runway instead of taking an early turnoff,
but I've had two-three cases of planes pulling onto the runway when I'm on short
final.

I've been lucky. I've yet to make a go-around "in anger" in 26 years.
I had one bozo cut ahead of me on final, but I let him know what he'd
done and how close I was and that we'd discuss it on the ground ... and
he decided to go around. :-)


Matt

I've ridden through several go-arounds on airline flights.
In one case I was a passenger going into [ DSM] on a DC-9.
The plane touched down just as a blizzard dumped a few tons
of snow, visibility drop to zero-zero and the PF/PIC decided
that he'd rather be in the air than on a runway blind at 140
knots.

I've made more than a few missed approaches when weather was
below minimums or I just could not find the airport. I have
made several go-arounds when a plane or car was on the
runway. I also have done many go-arounds as part of my
training and have set-up my students to do the same. A
go-around is safety valve, it is better than some accident.
Failing to go-around is a bigger "blot" on a pilots ego than
a properly and timely go-around.



"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
news | Ron Wanttaja wrote:
| I've had to go around maybe ~10 times in the last 20
years....not counting a
| botched landing or two (or twenty :-). Most common case
is a plane deciding to
| taxi all they way to the end of the runway instead of
taking an early turnoff,
| but I've had two-three cases of planes pulling onto the
runway when I'm on short
| final.
|
| I've been lucky. I've yet to make a go-around "in anger"
in 26 years.
| I had one bozo cut ahead of me on final, but I let him
know what he'd
| done and how close I was and that we'd discuss it on the
ground ... and
| he decided to go around. :-)
|
|
| Matt

Ron Natalie wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
d&tm writes:

And of course for obvious reasons powered aircraft have to give
way to gliders.

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.
If you are lower and on final you have the right of way.
Of course, common sense says to give gliders and others
restricted in ability to manouver the right of way.'


In addition, while ATC may have rules to that don't allow
them to permit it, there is no regulation from the pilot
side that says you can't have two aircraft on the runway
at the same time. You do have to be very careful however.

Yes there is a rule saying gliders have the right of way.
Yes there is a rule saying you can't have two airplanes on the same
runway at the same time. If the other plane isn't past the Runway Hold
Short line and another airplane lands, it is considered a runway
incursion.

The other day I was landing at a towered airport and thought I was
about to have to go around so I queried the guy in the tower about the
other plane still being on the runway...He said there was more than
3000" between us so it was ok. So ATC has more flexiblity.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:37:23 GMT, Matt Whiting wrote:

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
I've had to go around maybe ~10 times in the last 20 years....not counting a
botched landing or two (or twenty :-). Most common case is a plane deciding to
taxi all they way to the end of the runway instead of taking an early turnoff,
but I've had two-three cases of planes pulling onto the runway when I'm on short
final.

I've been lucky. I've yet to make a go-around "in anger" in 26 years.
I had one bozo cut ahead of me on final, but I let him know what he'd
done and how close I was and that we'd discuss it on the ground ... and
he decided to go around. :-)

I had one case where I was #2 on final, and the guy in front of me decided to
start a 360...probably for spacing with the plane in front of HIM. Guess he
figured since he announced his intentions on the radio, it was safe...never mind
guys like me who were NORDO. I just gave him a friendly wave as he went by.
Don't know if he finished the 360.

Had a plane cross UNDER me when I was on final, and just a year or so ago,
someone do the same trick on base. The first case was back when I was NORDO,
but the second case I wasn't.

Ah, well. There's a flight school at Boeing Field (one of the busiest GA
airports) who brings their dual students to our (uncontrolled) field for
training. They shut their radios down so all the other calls don't interfere
with their instruction. I was on the Airport Board then, and we sent them a
nice letter asking them to monitor the frequency. They told us that, according
to the FARs, they didn't have to.

Ron Wanttaja

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:37:22 -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.

unpowered over powered?

If you are lower and on final you have the right of way.
Of course, common sense says to give gliders and others
restricted in ability to manouver the right of way.'

#m
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Martin Hotze wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:37:22 -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:

I guess one can't really ask a glider to go around.

There's no rule that says you have to give way to gliders.

unpowered over powered?

Sort of. It's who is the least maneuverable (at least in the US). See
(d)(2). Who is arguing that you don't? I'm guessing somehow that it's
not Ron.



§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an
aircraft on water.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an
operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight
rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an
aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this
section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give
way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless
well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all
other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at
approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the
aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are
of different categories—

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute,
weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute,
weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the
right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other
head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to
the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the
right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course
to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing,
have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the
surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force
an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is
attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or
more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the
aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not
take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final
approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.