How often do you have to go around?

"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote:
"The general rule I was taught for the 172 is, provided you haven't 'creeped
in on your downwind', once the landing traffice passes your wing tip, you
can begin your turn to BASE, and it works out just about right..."

That's a pretty good rule of thumb when the two aircraft are flying at
similar speeds. It doesn't work when (for example), you're a 172 and the
guy on final is a Cub going 10 or 20 kts slower than you.

On the other hand, if you're a spam can mixing it up with jet traffic,
there's no reason you can't turn base long before your traffic has crossed
your wingtip. If you're doing 80 kts on base, and he's doing 130 on final,
there's no way you're going to catch him.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote:
"The general rule I was taught for the 172 is, provided you haven't
'creeped
in on your downwind', once the landing traffice passes your wing tip, you
can begin your turn to BASE, and it works out just about right..."

That's a pretty good rule of thumb when the two aircraft are flying at
similar speeds. It doesn't work when (for example), you're a 172 and the
guy on final is a Cub going 10 or 20 kts slower than you.

On the other hand, if you're a spam can mixing it up with jet traffic,
there's no reason you can't turn base long before your traffic has crossed
your wingtip. If you're doing 80 kts on base, and he's doing 130 on
final,
there's no way you're going to catch him.

Yes, I will admit, you do need to be cognisant (sp?) of the types of
aircraft are in the pattern, and adjust accordingly, i.e. if you are a 172
and cub is front of you, yes, I would wait a little longer before turning...

I am usually about 70 kts on base, and then about 65kts on final.

"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote in message
...
"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote:
"The general rule I was taught for the 172 is, provided you haven't
'creeped
in on your downwind', once the landing traffice passes your wing tip,
you
can begin your turn to BASE, and it works out just about right..."

That's a pretty good rule of thumb when the two aircraft are flying at
similar speeds. It doesn't work when (for example), you're a 172 and the
guy on final is a Cub going 10 or 20 kts slower than you.

On the other hand, if you're a spam can mixing it up with jet traffic,
there's no reason you can't turn base long before your traffic has
crossed
your wingtip. If you're doing 80 kts on base, and he's doing 130 on
final,
there's no way you're going to catch him.

Yes, I will admit, you do need to be cognisant (sp?) of the types of
aircraft are in the pattern, and adjust accordingly, i.e. if you are a
172 and cub is front of you, yes, I would wait a little longer before
turning...

I am usually about 70 kts on base, and then about 65kts on final.

Other thing I just realized... If I am a 172 with jet traffic (not uncommon
at places like Boeing Field), and following the jet... Yes, I don't need to
worry about catching him, but do need to be very aware of wake turbulence,
and fly final/turn final above his path and touch down past his touch down
point, or possibly ask the controller for a different runway or "wait" (a
360 or something)... I haven't had to follow a jet yet... Have been in the
other position, where I was landing with Citation right behind me. :-) But
do realize there are aircraft (other than jets) that could in the pattern
that are faster than me...

Roy Smith writes:

That's a pretty good rule of thumb when the two aircraft are flying at
similar speeds. It doesn't work when (for example), you're a 172 and the
guy on final is a Cub going 10 or 20 kts slower than you.

Does this mean that you have to know how fast each aircraft can or
usually does go, or can you easily tell how fast it is moving just by
watching it?

--
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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Roy Smith writes:

That's a pretty good rule of thumb when the two aircraft are flying at
similar speeds. It doesn't work when (for example), you're a 172 and the
guy on final is a Cub going 10 or 20 kts slower than you.

Does this mean that you have to know how fast each aircraft can or
usually does go, or can you easily tell how fast it is moving just by
watching it?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I think it is pretty common knowledge that if an airplane looks similar to
your airplane, it is probably going the same speed as you, if it is "sleeker
and sexier" than yours, it is probably going faster, if is not as "sleek and
sexy" probably slower... If it is bigger, it probably goes faster, if it is
smaller, probably goes slower. If it has more engines than you, probably
faster, less would be slower. If it burns high grade Kerosene (Jet A) and
you are buring 100LL, it is probably faster, reverse this for "slower".

But this isn't always true and requires judgement and knowledge on the
pilot's part. i.e. While a 150 and a 172 look similar (172 is slightly
"sexier" and a little "sleeker" and is bigger and generally flys a little
faster than the 150) it is possible to fly a 172 at 59 kts on final, while
flying a 150 at 75 knots on final... so if the 150 is behind the 172, the
150 pilot needs to realize he is going faster than the 172 and slow down
(not hard in a 150), which you judge by looking out the window and seeing if
the airplane is getting bigger or smaller (only works if you are going in
the same direction)

Being a 172 "driver", I know that anything that has more than one engine, or
a jet engine is going to be faster than me, also know most low wing aircraft
are going be faster than me (exceptions could be some Diamonds, some
experimentals, some Pipers like the Tomahawk, but these are typically
smaller than a 172). Most high wing aircraft are going to be right around
my speed range (182s are faster, 150s a little slower, taildraggers are
probably going to be slower because of their landing characteristics, but I
don't know much about taildraggers)

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Being a 172 "driver", I know that anything that has more than one engine, or
a jet engine is going to be faster than me, also know most low wing aircraft
are going be faster than me (exceptions could be some Diamonds, some
experimentals, some Pipers like the Tomahawk, but these are typically
smaller than a 172). Most high wing aircraft are going to be right around
my speed range (182s are faster, 150s a little slower, taildraggers are
probably going to be slower because of their landing characteristics, but I
don't know much about taildraggers)

Are you ever instructed to follow heavy aircraft on final? If so, how
do you avoid things like wake turbulence?

--
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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Being a 172 "driver", I know that anything that has more than one engine,
or
a jet engine is going to be faster than me, also know most low wing
aircraft
are going be faster than me (exceptions could be some Diamonds, some
experimentals, some Pipers like the Tomahawk, but these are typically
smaller than a 172). Most high wing aircraft are going to be right
around
my speed range (182s are faster, 150s a little slower, taildraggers are
probably going to be slower because of their landing characteristics, but
I
don't know much about taildraggers)

Are you ever instructed to follow heavy aircraft on final? If so, how
do you avoid things like wake turbulence?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Sort of already answered that in a different part of the thread... I have
not yet been put behind a heavier aircraft yet... However the general
practice is that you want to stay above the flight path of the heavier
aircraft and touchdown past the heavier aircraft's touchdown point. Taking
off after a heavier aircraft you want to stay above their flight path and
rotate before the point where they rotated.

However, as PIC you have the authority to decline an ATC request if you
think it would be unsafe or would not feel comfortable doing it, as it is
the PIC that is flying the aircraft, not ATC (although some controllers act
like they are flying the plane). If I was at Boeing Field, and landing on
13R, and a 777 landed while I was in the downwind, and given "Cessna xxxx,
Cleared to Land 13R, caution wake turbulence...", you can bet I would
decline that and probably ask to do some 360s or move to the short runway
(provided the wind isn't blowing the turbulence on to the other runway), or
a "go-around" (probably a kind of high go-around), or some other option.
Just because I am "cleared to land" doesn't mean I have to land, if I think
it is unsafe to do so, I have the right as PIC to decline it because I think
it is unsafe or not comfortable doing it, and in this case the controller
would be more than understanding, but most controllers are smart enough to
avoid putting you in that position.

I have been in the position of taking off after a heavier aircraft, and
recieved "Cleared to take off, caution wake turbulence, 767 departed 1
minute ago.", which just advised the controller that I would like to wait.
Was also cleared to take off to "take off no delay" at Renton because of
inbound lear jet, and apparently the contoller expected me to put full
throttle to taxi from the hold short line to the runway and I fumbled the
tail number (first time in the plane) and I got a gruff "Cessna xxxx I said
no delay!!!!!", which earned him a "Renton Tower, Cessna xxxx will wait for
the lear..." and sat at the hold short line, as I couldn't see where this
lear was, controllers attitude was not appropriate, and I didn't feel
comfortable doing and just pulled the throttle back and told them "I'll
wait", as I am flying the plane not him

I was asked to make a short aproach at Renton by the controller, and I
wasn't comfortable doing so at the time and just replied with "Cessna xxxx,
unable to do a short approach..." which got me "Cessna xxxx, do a right 360
for spacing", but as PIC I have the right to decline an ATC instruction if I
don't think it is safe. I was on a "close in base" (at the request of the
controller) at Renton once, and they cleared a plane to take off just as I
was to start my turn to a "short final", I wasn't comfortable with the way
things were looking, and told the controller "Renton Tower, Cessna xxxx,
doing a right 270 for spacing...", and it was like he didn't realize what
was about to transpire and was like "Yeah... Cessna xxxx, right 270 for
spacing..."

"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote:
Taking off after a heavier aircraft you want to stay above their flight
path and rotate before the point where they rotated.

That's the theory. In practice, I know of very few spam cans that can
outclimb a jet. There's no way you're going to stay above their flight
path if you follow their ground track.

The only way to avoid the wake of a departing jet is a quick turn away from
their track. It helps to be familiar with the IFR departure procedure, so
you can predict which way they'll turn. At HPN, I'll just ask for an
immediate turnout for wake avoidance. I've never had it turned down, and
I'm in my turn before I reach 100 AGL.

"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote

However, as PIC you have the authority to decline an ATC request if you think
it would be unsafe or would not feel comfortable doing it, as it is the PIC
that is flying the aircraft, not ATC

Although, if you say unable, you had better have a reasonable reason for saying
unable.

The ATC can have you fly back out to the podunk VOR for resequencing, or make
you wait while 15 planes take off before you get your turn to takeoff, or
anything else he so desires, if he wants to show his authority, if you get my
drift. g

That type of subject could start a whole new thread!

How many of you have been given unreasonable ( in your opinion) orders by ATC?
--
Jim in NC

Let's see...
I've been told to turn to a heading that would put me in a
level 4-5 T
In all fairness I doubt their radar at the time actually
showed the weather.

I was on final approach and below 200 feet [ still a student
pilot ] when the controller realized that he had another
airplane on short final on an intersecting runway. He told
me to make a right 360 for traffic. I said "Unable, will
go-around and turn before I get to the intersection and
reenter downwind."

I was at 4000 feet in solid IMC approaching the VOR enroute
to the OM for an ILS. Heard the controller issue a
clearance to the OM at 4000 to a plane that had just missed
the ILS [another trainer ]. I reported the VOR and was
told to hold at the OM at 4000. The other airplane was
still below 3000 feet and we were at that moment about 4
miles apart.
I advised that I was turning left at 4000 and would
intercept the DME arc, "let me know when the traffic is
above 4000"

On a strict traffic count the airport had qualified for
radar for years, but the airline traffic was low, only a few
commuters a day, so it was all position reporting.


"Morgans" wrote in message
...
|
| "Wade Hasbrouck" wrote
|
| However, as PIC you have the authority to decline an ATC
request if you think
| it would be unsafe or would not feel comfortable doing
it, as it is the PIC
| that is flying the aircraft, not ATC
|
| Although, if you say unable, you had better have a
reasonable reason for saying
| unable.
|
| The ATC can have you fly back out to the podunk VOR for
resequencing, or make
| you wait while 15 planes take off before you get your turn
to takeoff, or
| anything else he so desires, if he wants to show his
authority, if you get my
| drift. g
|
| That type of subject could start a whole new thread!
|
| How many of you have been given unreasonable ( in your
opinion) orders by ATC?
| --
| Jim in NC
|