musings - way waay OT

Matt Barrow wrote:

Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
tax would be an excellent start.


It won't do doodly squat!


What is your suggestion?

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:

Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
tax would be an excellent start.


It won't do doodly squat!


What is your suggestion?

My suggestion is "Let nature take it's course".

By that, I mean that short of some benevolent dictatorship (rather in short
supply in human history) the problem is not political, but attitudinal (some
would say "philosophical"). America needs to lose the collectivist/thug
mindset. Short of that, things are not going to change in the least. At base
is that human foible of ENVY.

Until the overwhelming majority of Americans come to realize you cannot live
out of someone else's pocket (over 60% of Americans receive some sort of
government welfare), they will never give up their own graft. Frederick
Bastiat wrote about this over 160 years ago and to say he was prescient is
an understatement. NOTE: I do not abide that old myth about democracy
lasting only 200 years, as it's not a matter of a timetable, but attitudes
going in. Look at how long Russia lasted after the collapse of the old
Soviet Union.

For a nation that doesn't like someone telling them how to live their lives
(what they can spend their money on) they sure like to do it to their
neighbors.

No, there's noting one can do politically (see the article I referenced in
another post) seeing the nanny state is so popular.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO (MTJ)

Matt Barrow wrote:


No, there's noting one can do politically (see the article I referenced in
another post) seeing the nanny state is so popular.



Well, you really don't have any suggestion, just a lot of opinion.

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:


No, there's noting one can do politically (see the article I referenced
in another post) seeing the nanny state is so popular.



Well, you really don't have any suggestion, just a lot of opinion.

I could post a dozen "suggestions", but a little thingy called "reality"
keeps butting in.

I could post a load of feel-good, mystical whims, such as some sort of
magical enlightenment, but that reality dude keeps rearing it's head.

People have been offering suggestions for a few hundred years, but guess
what!

So, in sum, I guess you really didn't comprehend my suggestion of
"...letting nature take it's course"?

If your grasp of the language is that stunted, I guess a more technical
response would be really baffling.

In the end, reality always wins.

Matt Barrow wrote:

So, in sum, I guess you really didn't comprehend my suggestion of
"...letting nature take it's course"?

No, I don't comprehend your "suggestion" at all because its nonsense.

There is nothing "natural" about income taxes. The concept was not
a part of the founders idea of a free society based upon hard work
and fair play.

When the income tax was created the people were told that only the
rich northerners would have to pay taxes and that worked (class envy).
Of course eventually we all got screwed and now income tax is one of the
things that politicians use to buy votes.

It also drags the entire economy down. When taxes are cut the economy
grows when they are raised it slows. So politicians talk about "targeted"
tax cuts which is BS for raise taxes on the "rich" ... which of course
is pretty much everyone who makes over $50K.

Income taxes are not natural... they punish acheivers and empower
worthless politicians.

"kontiki" == kontiki writes:

kontiki It also drags the entire economy down. When taxes are cut
kontiki the economy grows when they are raised it slows.

Just the opposite happened under Clinton. Economics, like most
everything else in reality, is more complicated than can be captured
in a single, handy to remember sentence.

California--and for that matter the USA--had a great period of
economic expansion and infrastructure building in the 1950s and
'60s. This occurred under some relatively high taxes, higher than now
I'm sure. The difference was the tax money was used to build they
highways, universities, water systems, etc. we still use today. In
other words the taxes were truly an investment in the economy.

Having just come back from a trip to Europe, I see the same thing
happening in Spain. Valencia, for instance, a city only a little
larger than Sacramento, enjoys a subway system and numbers of public
buildings we can only dream about...and yet from what my Spanish
friends and I could tell, from an even of comparing taxes one evening,
our total taxes were about the same.

The problem is not taxes, or high taxes, but what's done with whatever
money is collected. And we've done a lousy job in the last 20-30
years.

--
But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the
system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed,
analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses.
Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers

Bob Fry wrote:

California--and for that matter the USA--had a great period of
economic expansion and infrastructure building in the 1950s and
'60s. This occurred under some relatively high taxes, higher than now
I'm sure. The difference was the tax money was used to build they
highways, universities, water systems, etc. we still use today. In
other words the taxes were truly an investment in the economy.

I will stipulate that to a degree, tax money spent on infrastructure
that will benefit the continued economic engine is beneficial. You
must also stipulate that there is a point of no return where further
increases in taxes will not result in additional economic growth.

Having just come back from a trip to Europe, I see the same thing
happening in Spain. Valencia, for instance, a city only a little
larger than Sacramento, enjoys a subway system and numbers of public
buildings we can only dream about...and yet from what my Spanish
friends and I could tell, from an even of comparing taxes one evening,
our total taxes were about the same.

The problem is not taxes, or high taxes, but what's done with whatever
money is collected. And we've done a lousy job in the last 20-30
years.

No, high taxes are a problem to any economic system. People try to
justify them in various ways but it is not a good thing. Perhaps Spain
is unique, but I doubt it. Their economy is very small.

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:

So, in sum, I guess you really didn't comprehend my suggestion of
"...letting nature take it's course"?

No, I don't comprehend your "suggestion" at all because its nonsense.

Maybe to you...but it's been the way of history for eons.


There is nothing "natural" about income taxes. The concept was not
a part of the founders idea of a free society based upon hard work
and fair play.

No, they're not and I didn't say they were.

When the income tax was created the people were told that only the
rich northerners would have to pay taxes and that worked (class envy).
Of course eventually we all got screwed and now income tax is one of the
things that politicians use to buy votes.

Yes, indeed. They tried an unnatural solution (the need for revenue to run
the welfare state and American imperalism per Teddy Rosevelt) and got a
man-made disaster in short order. One problem with regulation, though, is
the "solution" is more "regulation" to fix the original problem, them more
to fix that, then more...


It also drags the entire economy down. When taxes are cut the economy
grows when they are raised it slows. So politicians talk about "targeted"
tax cuts which is BS for raise taxes on the "rich" ... which of course
is pretty much everyone who makes over $50K.

Income taxes are not natural... they punish acheivers and empower
worthless politicians.

Yes, but look how well the tax mentality is now built into the fabric of
American society.

So is your suggestion to do away with our tax system?

I'd like to know you answer before I burst out laughing. (I assume you're
looking for realistic solutions that'll work rather than one's that just a
feel-good PR campaign)

In sum, the tax system was a RESULT, a result of the dominant ideology at
the time (Hegel and Marx) that has pushed forward to today.

The only solution, then, is to replace that ideology. That is virtually
impossible short of a disaster, but it's also problematic to think that such
a disaster would cause a replacement that is suitable rather than one that
is even far more onerous.

Eventually America must get its collective head out of its ass, or the
disasters will come in trail again and again. No, we still haven't learned
the lessons of history that America founder's learned so well. Note, too,
that according to the folks that determine American ideology remind us
repeatedly that the Founders were slave holders, are dead white men, etc.

Where's mxsmanic when you need him???

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

In the end, reality always wins.

This has the makings of a great tag line. Mind if I steal it?