Common instruments on small aircraft

Judah writes:

The first plane I trained in was as basic as they get - one radio, one NAV.
It was adequate as a trainer, and even for renting (although I bought a
handheld GPS after I started renting more frequently). But they sold that
flight school and I don't think you can rent those planes anymore.

I think I'd be worried in a plane like that.

From what I hear, they now have a
couple of G1000 planes as well that they rent out with a special checkout
and for a slightly higher price as well, but I haven't flown them.

Hmm ... I'd be worried in a plane like that, too, but not for the same
reasons.

Then I joined a flight club. All the planes in the flight club have similar
equipment - 2 nav/coms, Autopilot, GPS. The club has 2 Archers, 3 Arrows,
and 3 Bonanzas, with nearly identical panels. The Bonanzas, as "travel"
planes, have some add-ons like HSIs, and one has a StrikeFinder. The
airframes aren't brand new like at the Cessna Dealer, but they are clean,
well maintained, include modern avionics, and the price and availability
are worth it.

Those sound nice.

I have never flown with a Radar Altimiter, nor even seen one. Based on your
messages, I believe your Baron simulation does not accurately reflect the
typical flight experience of a Private Pilot in the US. Perhaps it is
modeled after some other flight experience.

The Baron simulation seems to accurately simulate Barons, but from
what I understand, the Baron is an upscale aircraft with a high price
tag, and thus is probably not representative of other private
aircraft. The A36 simulation includes similar avionics (better
weather radar but no radar altimeter), which I suspect is better
equipment than many of the real ones have.

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Judah writes:

The first plane I trained in was as basic as they get - one radio, one
NAV. It was adequate as a trainer, and even for renting (although I
bought a handheld GPS after I started renting more frequently). But
they sold that flight school and I don't think you can rent those
planes anymore.

I think I'd be worried in a plane like that.

Worried about what, exactly?

From what I hear, they now have a
couple of G1000 planes as well that they rent out with a special
checkout and for a slightly higher price as well, but I haven't flown
them.

Hmm ... I'd be worried in a plane like that, too, but not for the same
reasons.

Worried about what, exactly?

Then I joined a flight club. All the planes in the flight club have
similar equipment - 2 nav/coms, Autopilot, GPS. The club has 2 Archers,
3 Arrows, and 3 Bonanzas, with nearly identical panels. The Bonanzas,
as "travel" planes, have some add-ons like HSIs, and one has a
StrikeFinder. The airframes aren't brand new like at the Cessna Dealer,
but they are clean, well maintained, include modern avionics, and the
price and availability are worth it.

Those sound nice.

I have to say, they are nice. I enjoy the club planes very much. Great
planes with a great pricetag.

Judah writes:

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Judah writes:

The first plane I trained in was as basic as they get - one radio, one
NAV. It was adequate as a trainer, and even for renting (although I
bought a handheld GPS after I started renting more frequently). But
they sold that flight school and I don't think you can rent those
planes anymore.

I think I'd be worried in a plane like that.

Worried about what, exactly?

A lack of redundancy. Also, to determine your position exactly with
navaids, you either need two of them or some sort of distance
information, e.g., 1 VOR+DME, or 2 VORs.

Yes, I know that you might be flying routinely in VMC and might be
able to just look out the window, but I like to have reliable backup
for my own, highly subjective determinations of where I am.

I tried flying from Phoenix to KSAN not long ago by following the
interstates, but I didn't realize until I saw Palm Springs below that
I was following the wrong interstate. Granted, this was simulation,
and you might say that real life provides a clearer picture on the
ground than simulation, but I think all interstates look very similar,
and I might well make the same mistake in real life (essentially just
one of following I-10 instead of whatever leads to San Diego).

Worried about what, exactly?

Failure of insufficiently tested all-in-one avionics. It's best to
minmize the number of tools or instruments that have
interdependencies.

I have to say, they are nice. I enjoy the club planes very much. Great
planes with a great pricetag.

How do they afford it? Somebody must have paid for all that gear up
front at some point. Who owns the aircraft?

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Worried about what, exactly?

A lack of redundancy. Also, to determine your position exactly with
navaids, you either need two of them or some sort of distance
information, e.g., 1 VOR+DME, or 2 VORs.

Again, a lack of training has left you without some very basic knowledge.
You can toggle between your primary and backup frequency even on 1 VOR to
pinpoint your position with good accuracy. You already have the skill, you
just don't understand how to apply them because you have not had proper
training.

Yes, I know that you might be flying routinely in VMC and might be
able to just look out the window, but I like to have reliable backup
for my own, highly subjective determinations of where I am.

Unfortunately, the perspective in a Sim does not compare to the actual
perspective in a real airplane, and so I understand your concern. In a real
plane, this is not a major issue.

I tried flying from Phoenix to KSAN not long ago by following the
interstates, but I didn't realize until I saw Palm Springs below that
I was following the wrong interstate. Granted, this was simulation,
and you might say that real life provides a clearer picture on the
ground than simulation, but I think all interstates look very similar,
and I might well make the same mistake in real life (essentially just
one of following I-10 instead of whatever leads to San Diego).

Yes, but in real life, there are many more cues than just the road. You can
use your sectional to determine the location of towers, bridges, cities,
tracks, and other similar milestones so that you are not dependent on a
single point of failure.

Worried about what, exactly?

Failure of insufficiently tested all-in-one avionics. It's best to
minmize the number of tools or instruments that have
interdependencies.

I believe the G1000 panel has steam-guage backups of the minimum required
equipment.

I have to say, they are nice. I enjoy the club planes very much. Great
planes with a great pricetag.

How do they afford it? Somebody must have paid for all that gear up
front at some point. Who owns the aircraft?

The club members split the costs. The club has grown through several planes
over many years, and I have not been a member since the beginning, so I
don't know the exact history of how the first planes were purchased.
However, I imagine it started off with some number of people who decided to
start a flight club, purchased a plane or two using a mortgage, and split
the costs of the mortgage, tiedown, maintenance, upgrades, etc. I doubt
very much than anyone other than a bank "paid for all that gear up front".

Judah writes:

Again, a lack of training has left you without some very basic knowledge.
You can toggle between your primary and backup frequency even on 1 VOR to
pinpoint your position with good accuracy. You already have the skill, you
just don't understand how to apply them because you have not had proper
training.

Makeshift solutions are not something I'd want to depend on.

Unfortunately, the perspective in a Sim does not compare to the actual
perspective in a real airplane, and so I understand your concern. In a real
plane, this is not a major issue.

If weather conditions permit. But ideally I'd want to be able to fly
even in poor visibility.

Yes, but in real life, there are many more cues than just the road.

Not in the deserts of the American Southwest. Sometimes it's nothing
for miles. Although I'll grant that with a chart I might be able to
find something.

The basic idea was to just follow a highway to my destination, since
I've read that early pilots managed to do this much of the time.

You can
use your sectional to determine the location of towers, bridges, cities,
tracks, and other similar milestones so that you are not dependent on a
single point of failure.

If I had a sectional. Unfortunately, those are expensive, and finding
one for the southwestern U.S. in France would be problematic (and
costly).

I believe the G1000 panel has steam-guage backups of the minimum required
equipment.

I prefer a more non-integrated solution, because it reduces
interdependent failures. If the G1000 were just an information
display, fine; but I would not trust it to tie everything together.
That's too much dependence on one box.

The club members split the costs. The club has grown through several planes
over many years, and I have not been a member since the beginning, so I
don't know the exact history of how the first planes were purchased.
However, I imagine it started off with some number of people who decided to
start a flight club, purchased a plane or two using a mortgage, and split
the costs of the mortgage, tiedown, maintenance, upgrades, etc. I doubt
very much than anyone other than a bank "paid for all that gear up front".

Still, a fleet of planes is quite an investment. How many aircraft
are there, and how many members in the club?

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

If weather conditions permit. But ideally I'd want to be able to fly
even in poor visibility.

Dayem, here I go again....

I fly in poor viz all the time. Perfectly safe. In fact, safer then my
drive to the airport!

If I had a sectional. Unfortunately, those are expensive, and finding
one for the southwestern U.S. in France would be problematic (and
costly).

Get out of your game and on the net. There is a source to download from if
you look real carefully.

Allen

A Lieberma writes:

Get out of your game and on the net. There is a source to download from if
you look real carefully.

I've found some terminal charts but nothing with a wide selection of
sectionals. Navigation data is big business and some things seem to
be jealously guarded.

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Judah writes:

Makeshift solutions are not something I'd want to depend on.

What makes you say this is makeshift?

If weather conditions permit. But ideally I'd want to be able to fly
even in poor visibility.

Then you would get your Instrument Rating and fly a plane that had the
minimum required equipment. You might also carry some backup instruments like
a handheld GPS and handheld NAV/COM.

If I had a sectional. Unfortunately, those are expensive, and finding
one for the southwestern U.S. in France would be problematic (and
costly).

There are several sites where you can download sectionals at no cost. It was
discussed in an earlier thread. You can google it.

Judah writes:

What makes you say this is makeshift?

Because it is. It takes a lot of time and attention during phases of
flight where time and attention are at a premium.

If it were that easy, there wouldn't be two navaid receivers in so
many aircraft.

Then you would get your Instrument Rating and fly a plane that had the
minimum required equipment. You might also carry some backup instruments like
a handheld GPS and handheld NAV/COM.

I'd want a GPS and radios in the plane, but I might well carry
handhelds just to be safe (along with a lot of other emergency stuff).

There are several sites where you can download sectionals at no cost. It was
discussed in an earlier thread. You can google it.

I'll look around.

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On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:02:49 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Judah writes:

The first plane I trained in was as basic as they get - one radio, one NAV.
It was adequate as a trainer, and even for renting (although I bought a
handheld GPS after I started renting more frequently). But they sold that
flight school and I don't think you can rent those planes anymore.

I think I'd be worried in a plane like that.

Take a look, then, at a photo of the panel of *my* airplane:

http://www.wanttaja.com/hhrad2.JPG

Be afraid. Be very afraid. :-)

Ron Wanttaja