Common instruments on small aircraft

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Yes, a current IFR rating could be helpful, but a VFR pilot should be
very
concious of what the weather is and what the weather will do, doesn't
leave
without a "back up" plan, should the weather not do what is expected.

Sure, but if you want to get from point A to point B, and the weather
doesn't cooperate, you are simply out of luck. This means that you
cannot rely on GA for scheduled (meaning planned in advance) travel if
you can only fly VFR.

"scheduled" is poor choice of words, as to the FAA, that inferes "airline"
"air taxi" or "on demand operation", which is strictly prohibited under Part
91 of the FARs (part under which Private Pilots operate). In the eyes of
the FAA a "planned flight" is different than a "scheduled flight" (scheduled
implies that it occurs regularly and is "for hire" or "on demand")

If I want to drive from GTF to SEA, and the weather doesn't cooperate, I am
out of luck too. I have had this happen (Avalanches have been know to close
Snoqualmie Pass on I-90, and Steven Pass can be quite treacherous in the
winter). I was stuck on the eastside of the Cascades for two days while
they cleared both Stevens Pass on US 2 and Snoqualmie Pass I-90 because of
Avalanches, along with freezing rain on I-90 in Eastern Washington, not to
mention the 3 other mountain passes that had to cross to get to Eastern
Washington. This has actually happened to me twice two separate years)

No form of transportation is perfect and 100% reliable.


The longer the trip you plan, the more likely it is that an inability
to fly IFR will prevent you from completing it (or even starting it).

Many people fly from places like Seattle or California to Oshkosh every year
for EAA's AirVenture. I know many people that make flights from Seattle to
places on the other side of the Cascades, and the Rockies for that matter
with out problems. Granted it gets tougher in the winter time, and for that
matter driving across the Cascades in the winter time also becomes tougher
and is something I try to avoid.


Also things like Fligh****ch are very useful tools for the VFR pilot to
find out
what the weather is doing up ahead of him. Also, a good pilot will keep
his
passengers informed of what is going on with the weather.

Unless I were flying over desert in the severest clear weather, I'd
fly IFR with passengers. You never know when clouds or fog might
appear ahead. Being equipped to handle icing would be handy, too,
although avoidance would be the key policy for that.

Do you even know what Fligh****ch and EFAS are? Have you heard of Pilot
Reports? You make it sound like once you a Private Pilot is in the air he
is all alone and helpless.

Do you have any knowledge about weather? Do you know what weather conditions
need to be present for low clouds or fog to form or when they are likely to
form?

Are you familar with the weather trends of the areas that you are flying in?
i.e. fog in the Seattle area doesn't start to form until after midnight and
usually doesn't become problem until early morning...

Those pieces of knowledge alone can be extremely helpful figuring out what
might be going on at your destination or along the route.

Let me guess you would probably file IFR if it was a 2000' ceiling, 6 mile
visibility in going from PAE to SEA in a Cessna 172 or even the Baron.


I had a coworker
who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton National) on a Saturday
morning. We planned this flight several weeks ahead of time. The day
before the weather forecast showed that it could be questionable weather,
but still looked flyable. I let him know that it is questionable, but
won't
really know for sure in the morning. The next morning the ceilings at
PWT
dropped to 600', and we couldn't go. Tried again the next Saturday
morning,
with basically the same results.

The Seattle area seems to be IFR heaven. Very often when I load
real-world weather into my sim for a flight, it's all IFR, and I have
to file a flight plan to go anywhere (fortunately, I'm building up a
nice little library of common IFR flight plans).

Depends on when you fly... Fall/Winter (October - March) is definitely
"tougher" because of the weather. Spring/Summer are nice. afternoons,
Evenings, and nights in the Fall/Winter are generally better than mornings.


I am up front with my passengers when they
fly with me, and say that the flight is very dependent on the weather,
and
will keep them in the loop as far as what is going on with the weather,
and
if they want will explain the things that went into my decision,
especially
for a "no-go" decision.

If you have understanding passengers, fine. If they are going to a
wedding or job interview, though, this is a serious problem.

Again you are inferring that the Private Pilot can ignore FAR Part 91 and
FAR 61.113 when they want to help out friends. If a friend comes to me and
says "I have a wedding or job interview to go to, could you fly me there?",
this would most likely be considered a violation of 61.113, and would be
illegal for a Private Pilot to do.

If you have passengers asking for these types of things, or you are
volunteering to fly them places like this, depending on how it is initiated,
it will more than likely will result in a violation of FAR 61.113. FAA says
that compensation doesn't always have to take a monetary form, doing a
"favor" for someone can be considered compensation by the FAA. You are
starting to imply that a Private Pilot can operate as an "air taxi" or "on
demand operation" which is strictly prohibited for Private Pilots. A
Private Pilot can only fly in furthence of a business if it is "incidental
and there are no other passengers or cargo on board for hire"

I make it perfectly clear to my passengers, that I am the one responsible
for the safety of the flight, and if at any point I see that it is not safe
to go or continue, I will terminate the flight, and ask before they get in
the airplane (alot of times before I even book the plane) if they can deal
with the possible dissappointment and/or hardship of not being able to go or
complete the flight, and if they can't, we don't fly. I am not an airline,
I am not an air taxi, I am not an on demand operation, I am a private pilot
who wants to go someplace with some friends, and see it as a convient form
of transportation to take my friends and myself places that we want to go,
and if the weather doesn't cooperate, we have a backup plan either an
alternate route or ground transportation if we really want to go.

I would rather fly to my hometown in Montana from Seattle in about 5 hours,
vs. the 10 hours of driving to get there.

You also make it sound like a Private Pilot doesn't check the weather until
about 5 minutes before his friends show up at the airport to go fly, when in
reality, a responsible pilot will be checking it further out in advance than
you may think. For instance, if I am going flying in two weeks, I will keep
an eye on the long range forecasts, starting about 10 days out from the
flight. While these forecasts are not pinpoint accurate, they are generally
accurate enough to tell me if I need to start reconsidering my options,
especially with in 3 days or so of the flight. I do this about once a day
up until about 24 hours before the flight, at which time the more detailed
forecasts (online stanadard weather briefings) and things such as the
Terminal Area Forecasts start become available as they forecast what the
ceilings should do and what the visibility should be. Then I will check it
again before leaving for the airport, which is when I call Flight Service
for a Standard Weather Breifing (up to this point I get Standard Weather
Breifings online through DUATS), I actually call Flight Service and talk to
them just in case I missed something in the online breifings. If at any
point during this process, I feel that things are not safe for the flight, I
let my passengers know and what our options are (wait and see, wait it out,
cancel the flight, find a different mode of transportation). This makes it
much easier should it become a "no-go".


You make it sound that a Private Pilot is on the same level as an Airline
Transport Pilot and is flying regular routes, which is not the case.

If you seriously want to use GA for transportation, the private pilot
IS on the same level. Without an IFR rating and an appropriate
aircraft, a private pilot is fairly useless for real transportation,
unless he happens to live in a place like Death Valley.

A Private Pilot IS NOT on the same level. Again "regular travel" implies a
"scheduled service" and operating under something other than FAR Part 91.


You also make it sound like a Private Pilot is taking passengers that are
paying
for transportation, which if that was the case, you wouldn't be a Private
Pilot for very long as the FAA would quickly take your certificate.

Not at all. You could have commitments to friends or relatives to
transport them here or there, with no money involved.

FAA could still consider this as flying for compensation, which is
prohibited under Part 91 and FAR 61.113. FAA has said that compensation
doesn't have to be monetary in nature to violate FAR 61.113. If I am taking
friends and family on a trip they must realize, that there is always a
possibility we might not be able to fly or that we may need to stay longer
at our destination, otherwise again we don't fly and we find a different
mode of transportation. If a friend comes up to me and says "I need to go
somplace, can you fly me there?" and I do the flight (even if I pay for the
flight), that can still be considered a violation of FAR 61.113.


The president of the flying club I belong to, is an ATP rated pilot and
is
currently a 747 captain for a notable airline, and has been flying for
this
airline for more than 20 years (started in 727s and moved up). He was
planning on a trip to Sun Valley from Seattle, in the club's 182, which
does
have the Garmin gns430 GPS, and the Garmin Mode S transponder. Weather
in
Seattle wasn't that great, and I figured he would go IFR, but he canceled
the flight. I saw him the next weekend, and asked why... he simply
stated
"Weather...", so an Instrument Rating doesn't always get you where you
want
to go.

He could have gone if he had really wanted to, with the proper rating
and aircraft. Maybe IFR irritates him; I can understand that, as it's
mostly instruments and radio, rather than admiring the countryside
outside the window. He already does that at work, so it would be a
sort of busman's holiday.

That first sentence is almost insulting, implying that he is not properly
rated and would consider taking improperly rated aircraft.

He has the proper rating, as he is a Designated Pilot Examiner for Private,
Commercial, Instrument, ATP, Flight Instructor, and Multi Engine which means
he has all of those ratings and is current, and he had properly rated
aircraft, an IFR rated Cessna 182 with Garmin gns 430 GPS, DME, Garmin Mode
S transponder, etc.

Going "because you really want/need to" will more than likely get you
killed, becuase you are no longer thinking rationally about the situation
and results in poor judgement.

I know him, you don't... He doesn't mind IFR, as long as it is sensible and
safe. He was doing IFR with a student the other weekend. If he didn't like
IFR he wouldn't do it. He evaluated the situation, and felt that it was not
safe to go, even IFR, and knowing him, he doesn't go if it is not safe.

Do you actually think your typical airline captain has his eyes glued to the
instrument panel when it is VMC outside the plane?


A 747 captain who doesn't have a plane of his own?

What are you implying? I almost take this as an insult, like he is a
"lesser" 747 captain because he doesn't have his own plane.

In a way he does "have his own plane..." The club is limited to 60 members,
each member is a 1/60 owner in each of the three planes the club has. Why
own your own plane and pay all of the maintenance on it yourself, when you
can share the cost with 59 other people and the availability and upkeep of
the planes are excellent, and since he is the president of the club he also
gets a certain amount of free flight time each month.


Again, a VFR pilot should always be aware of the weather, and have a
suitable backup plan before leaving.

Often the only backup plan is not to go, which is unacceptable if you
really need to get somewhere (the underlying presumption if you are
flying for transportation).

A backup plan could be an alternate route or other means of transportation.
I believe his back up plan, and in the case of many others, is to drive,
which to the Private Pilots I know, is a suitable and acceptable back up
plan, which is better than killing yourself in an airplane because you did
something stupid or had "get-there-itis"


What time of the day are you flying around Seattle. Seattle is notorious
for "morning clouds and afternoon sun".

The bad weather has indeed been early in the day. I fly late in the
day here in Paris, but since I use real time and weather in many
cases, it's early morning with 1/4 mile of visibility when I try to
fly. It's good IFR practice, though. And it seems to be mostly low
visiblity, not windy or icy.

Seattle typically is not windy or icy.


Last week and the weekend before, the weather was pretty crappy.

Yes, I was there ... so to speak. My practice flights from KPAE to
KTIW were all IFR, but it was good practice. No rain and seemingly
very little wind, but practically zero visibility. I had one tragic
accident at KTIW when I couldn't see the runway until I was only about
100 feet off the threshold (and heading directly for a tall tree).
Thank goodness a new Baron 58 was waiting for me only seconds later!

It also sounds like SEA might have been below IFR minimums, but I know
what
the IFR minimums for SEA are, as I know it probably depends on the
avionics
in the plane as well (remember hopping a comercial flight from GTF to
SEA,
and it was the first day in about a week that they could land at SEA as
their planes didn't have an adequate avionics package to land in very low
visibility.

I meant to say "I don't know what the IFR minimums are for SEA"

If you are flying IFR in the simulator, don't you know what the IFR minimums
are? Just because you are on an IFR flight plan, doesn't mean you can land
in zero visibility, especially at a place like TIW, as many airports have
some minimums where if you don't see the runway at a given altitude, you are
required to execute a missed approach.

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

"scheduled" is poor choice of words, as to the FAA, that inferes "airline"
"air taxi" or "on demand operation", which is strictly prohibited under Part
91 of the FARs (part under which Private Pilots operate). In the eyes of
the FAA a "planned flight" is different than a "scheduled flight" (scheduled
implies that it occurs regularly and is "for hire" or "on demand")

I wasn't using the FAA's dictionary. Scheduled meant marked on a
calendar, written in a planner, or just memorized as something one
plans to do.

No form of transportation is perfect and 100% reliable.

But aviation is unusually vulnerable to weather. That's why so much
of modern aviation seeks to reduce the effects of weather.

Do you even know what Fligh****ch and EFAS are? Have you heard of Pilot
Reports? You make it sound like once you a Private Pilot is in the air he
is all alone and helpless.

I think it's safe to plan as if you'll be alone. You aren't really
likely to be alone and helpless, but having contigency plans for that
possibility cannot hurt. I might have any number of ways to know and
avoid bad weather, but I have to be prepared to handle bad weather if
I encounter it.

Depends on when you fly... Fall/Winter (October - March) is definitely
"tougher" because of the weather. Spring/Summer are nice. afternoons,
Evenings, and nights in the Fall/Winter are generally better than mornings.

It was okay last night, although my flight ended tragically for other
reasons related directly to the sim. I almost landed safely. I'm not
sure if I survived.

Again you are inferring that the Private Pilot can ignore FAR Part 91 and
FAR 61.113 when they want to help out friends. If a friend comes to me and
says "I have a wedding or job interview to go to, could you fly me there?",
this would most likely be considered a violation of 61.113, and would be
illegal for a Private Pilot to do.

So where does one draw the line? Is it against regulations to say yes
to any request for a plane ride? After all, that would be planning
the flight, in a sense.

I make it perfectly clear to my passengers, that I am the one responsible
for the safety of the flight, and if at any point I see that it is not safe
to go or continue, I will terminate the flight, and ask before they get in
the airplane (alot of times before I even book the plane) if they can deal
with the possible dissappointment and/or hardship of not being able to go or
complete the flight, and if they can't, we don't fly. I am not an airline,
I am not an air taxi, I am not an on demand operation, I am a private pilot
who wants to go someplace with some friends, and see it as a convient form
of transportation to take my friends and myself places that we want to go,
and if the weather doesn't cooperate, we have a backup plan either an
alternate route or ground transportation if we really want to go.

That's fine, but it just emphasizes how unsuitable GA is for practical
transportation in most cases. You don't have to worry about that with
a car. Commercial airlines don't worry about it excessively, although
it's occasionally a factor.

For instance, if I am going flying in two weeks, I will keep
an eye on the long range forecasts, starting about 10 days out from the
flight.

A ten-day forecast isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

FAA could still consider this as flying for compensation, which is
prohibited under Part 91 and FAR 61.113. FAA has said that compensation
doesn't have to be monetary in nature to violate FAR 61.113. If I am taking
friends and family on a trip they must realize, that there is always a
possibility we might not be able to fly or that we may need to stay longer
at our destination, otherwise again we don't fly and we find a different
mode of transportation. If a friend comes up to me and says "I need to go
somplace, can you fly me there?" and I do the flight (even if I pay for the
flight), that can still be considered a violation of FAR 61.113.

No FAR is violated if you just go by car, or by commercial airline.

Going "because you really want/need to" will more than likely get you
killed, becuase you are no longer thinking rationally about the situation
and results in poor judgement.

Maybe, but for the umpteenth time, this just emphasizes how
impractical GA is for transportation.

Do you actually think your typical airline captain has his eyes glued to the
instrument panel when it is VMC outside the plane?

I think a lot of them doze off a bit during long flights.

What are you implying?

That a 747 captain should be able to afford his own plane.

If you are flying IFR in the simulator, don't you know what the IFR minimums
are?

I don't know anything that requires a chart, as I don't have charts.

Just because you are on an IFR flight plan, doesn't mean you can land
in zero visibility, especially at a place like TIW, as many airports have
some minimums where if you don't see the runway at a given altitude, you are
required to execute a missed approach.

Unfortunately, Mother Nature decided to reduce the visibility while I
was en route. I could have executed a missed approach, but for what
purpose? Everything was in the same condition. I was not equipped to
land anywhere with only a hundred feet or so in front of me. Do I
just stay in a holding pattern until the weather improves or I run out
of fuel? It's a serious question.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Wade Hasbrouck wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote
If you have understanding passengers, fine. If they are going to a
wedding or job interview, though, this is a serious problem.

Again you are inferring that the Private Pilot can ignore FAR Part 91 and
FAR 61.113 when they want to help out friends. If a friend comes to me and
says "I have a wedding or job interview to go to, could you fly me there?",
this would most likely be considered a violation of 61.113, and would be
illegal for a Private Pilot to do.

That's absurd. Someone asking to be flown somewhere is in no way a
violation of the FARs. If it were, most GA pilots would be in violation
almost every time they fly.

Case in point - you said in a previous post:

" I had a coworker who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton
National) on a Saturday morning."

So by your own interpretation, *you* are in violation of FAR 61.113.

In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation (which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.



Not at all. You could have commitments to friends or relatives to
transport them here or there, with no money involved.

FAA could still consider this as flying for compensation, which is
prohibited under Part 91 and FAR 61.113. FAA has said that compensation
doesn't have to be monetary in nature to violate FAR 61.113.

Again - in his scenario, no compensation is described, so it is
perfectly legal. The word "commitment" does not inherently imply
compensation. A commitment is merely an obligation to an agreement.

"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com...

SNIP

That's absurd. Someone asking to be flown somewhere is in no way a
violation of the FARs. If it were, most GA pilots would be in violation
almost every time they fly.

Case in point - you said in a previous post:

" I had a coworker who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton
National) on a Saturday morning."

So by your own interpretation, *you* are in violation of FAR 61.113.

In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation (which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.

I may be confusing this type of situation with a different scenario, but,
IIRC, you also have to be able to prove a "commonality" for making the
flight. Just being amenable to giving a buddy a lift somewhere because *he*
wants to go there is not enough if YOU don't really have a reason to go
there beyond helping your buddy. You have to have a reason to go too.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

"Bart" wrote in
oups.com:

Wade Hasbrouck wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote
If you have understanding passengers, fine. If they are going to a
wedding or job interview, though, this is a serious problem.

Again you are inferring that the Private Pilot can ignore FAR Part 91
and FAR 61.113 when they want to help out friends. If a friend comes
to me and says "I have a wedding or job interview to go to, could you
fly me there?", this would most likely be considered a violation of
61.113, and would be illegal for a Private Pilot to do.

That's absurd. Someone asking to be flown somewhere is in no way a
violation of the FARs. If it were, most GA pilots would be in
violation almost every time they fly.

Case in point - you said in a previous post:

" I had a coworker who wanted to go have lunch at PWT (Bremerton
National) on a Saturday morning."

So by your own interpretation, *you* are in violation of FAR 61.113.

In order for a violation to occur, there has to be compensation
(which
may or may not be monetary) which the above situations, as described,
do not include.



Not at all. You could have commitments to friends or relatives to
transport them here or there, with no money involved.

FAA could still consider this as flying for compensation, which is
prohibited under Part 91 and FAR 61.113. FAA has said that
compensation doesn't have to be monetary in nature to violate FAR
61.113.

Again - in his scenario, no compensation is described, so it is
perfectly legal. The word "commitment" does not inherently imply
compensation. A commitment is merely an obligation to an agreement.


The FAA has ruled in the past that the ability to log the flight time
(whether or not you actually do so) is in and of itself compensation.

If your friend invites you to attend the wedding, then there is no
problem, as you have a common purpose for the trip where the air
transportation is incidental. But if you are only flying to transport your
friend to the wedding and you have no other purpose in going on the flight,
then you are in violation.

There are some exceptions for private pilots as specified either in
the FARs or by FAA policy specified in the Air Transportation Operations
Inspector's Handbook, Order 8400.10. The ones I'm aware of are FAR 91.321
regarding the carriage of candidates in elections or the policy stated in
8400.10 section 1345 for "Life Flights" (like Angel Flight) where a private
pilot is allowed to take a tax deduction and inspectors are specifically
instructed not to treat this tax deductibility of costs as constituting
"compensation for hire".

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Marty Shapiro wrote:
"Bart" wrote:
The FAA has ruled in the past that the ability to log the flight time
(whether or not you actually do so) is in and of itself compensation.

If your friend invites you to attend the wedding, then there is no
problem, as you have a common purpose for the trip where the air
transportation is incidental. But if you are only flying to transport your
friend to the wedding and you have no other purpose in going on the flight,
then you are in violation.

As long as the pilot pays for the entire cost of operating the aircraft
(ie - no pro rata sharing of expenses), it is legal.

Logging flight time is considered compensation on flights where there
is sharing of expenses. The added "compensation" to the pilot (beyond
the sharing of expenses) of being able to log flight time violates the
pro rata.

"Bart" wrote in
ups.com:

Marty Shapiro wrote:
"Bart" wrote:
The FAA has ruled in the past that the ability to log the
flight time
(whether or not you actually do so) is in and of itself compensation.

If your friend invites you to attend the wedding, then there
is no
problem, as you have a common purpose for the trip where the air
transportation is incidental. But if you are only flying to
transport your friend to the wedding and you have no other purpose in
going on the flight, then you are in violation.

As long as the pilot pays for the entire cost of operating the
aircraft (ie - no pro rata sharing of expenses), it is legal.

Logging flight time is considered compensation on flights where there
is sharing of expenses. The added "compensation" to the pilot (beyond
the sharing of expenses) of being able to log flight time violates the
pro rata.



Inspector's for at least 2 FSDO's that I'm aware of say otherwise.
They were very clear in different Wings safety seminars that providing air
transportation for a friend is NOT permitted for a private pilot. One even
stated that the FAA added the definition of logging time as compensation
for this exact case, where the pilot does not charge at all. They
empasized that unless you were going to make the trip regardless of whether
or not your friend was going along, you would be violating the FARs.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Marty Shapiro writes:

Inspector's for at least 2 FSDO's that I'm aware of say otherwise.
They were very clear in different Wings safety seminars that providing air
transportation for a friend is NOT permitted for a private pilot. One even
stated that the FAA added the definition of logging time as compensation
for this exact case, where the pilot does not charge at all. They
empasized that unless you were going to make the trip regardless of whether
or not your friend was going along, you would be violating the FARs.

That rules out a great deal of the motivation for GA, and thus makes
no sense.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Marty Shapiro wrote:
Inspector's for at least 2 FSDO's that I'm aware of
say otherwise. They were very clear in different Wings
safety seminars that providing air transportation for a
friend is NOT permitted for a private pilot. One even
stated that the FAA added the definition of logging time
as compensation for this exact case, where the
pilot does not charge at all.

If it's your own airplane and you pay 100% of fuel and other
direct costs, logging the time can't possibly be compensation.
You can fly the plane any time you want. Having a friend in the
right seat doesn't make any difference. If I want to build time
for a rating, I can fly solo to places I rather not go to, like
the food at that airport restaurant sucks. Or I can do a favor
for a friend and take him there for free upon request.

The FAA has also ruled that they cannot make an assumption that
logged time is of any value. I have my IR and am too old
(drawing Social Security) for an ATP to be worth anything. How
is my logged time in my plane compensatory?

Fred F.

The FAA has also ruled that they cannot make an assumption that logged time is of any value.

Where? I'd like to see the case.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.