ATC out to get us?

"mvgossman" wrote:
1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

Yes, it's standard practice, especially near the ceiling of the CDAS.

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited?

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.
If the conversation really went on as you described it, I'd say the
controller was guilty of using some sloppy language. He should have either
said, "cleared into the class bravo", or "unable class bravo clearance".
One way or the other, you would have known exactly what he meant. I
haven't the foggiest idea what "You'll be OK" means.

Whenever in doubt, especially with a controller who is not being clear, the
way you can force a clear answer is to say, "Confirm Cessna 12345 is
cleared into the class bravo at 3000", or perhaps even, "Understand Cessna
12345 is cleared into the class bravo at 3000". That should get you an
unambiguous response.

Is it conceivable that a controller would be so sadistic as to send a
place through Bravo without clearance and then bust them?

Sadistic, no. But, I could certainly see a mis-understanding leading to a
bust. That's why the AIM has a glossary of specific words that have
specific meanings. If you ad-lib, you get mis-understandings.

3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

There is no "implied" clearance. If you are on an IFR clearance, you've
got a clearance. Nothing implied about it.

Could you file IFR? Sure you could. But, if you wanted to do that, don't
spring any surprises on the controller. File an IFR flight plan from your
home base to your home base. For the route, put in a single waypoint, a
radial/DME from the nearest VOR. Put a comment that explains what you're
doing. I just did one in DUATS and it looks like this:

1 Type of flight plan: IFR
2 Aircraft tail number: N9003S
3 Acft type/special equip: BE35/G
4 True airspeed: 130
5 Departure point: HPN
6 Departure time: (UTC) Tue Oct 24 16:00
7 Altitude: 25
8 Route of flight: CMK270010/D00+20
9 Destination: HPN
10 Estimated time enroute: 0040
11 Remarks: SIGHTSEEING OVER FAIRGROUNDS
12 Fuel on board: 0400
13 Alternate destination(s):

I'm assuming 'the fairgrounds' would be a locally familiar landmark to ATC.

But, in all honesty, that's probably more trouble than it's worth. Just
call up VFR, tell the controller exactly what you want to do, and make sure
you get an unambiguous statement from him if you're cleared into the CBAS
or not.

If you're taking off from a towered airport, as CD to get you the class
bravo clearance before you take off. Even if they can't get you the
clearance per-se, they can generate a strip for you, get you a squawk, and
then Tracon will be expecting your handoff. Once you get in contact with
the first approach controller, he's the guy to tell what you want to do, "I
want to proceed direct to the Gopher 150 radial, 12 DME, and orbit at 3000
in that vicinity for 20 minutes".

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:47:13 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.

Hmm.

Yesterday, I was southbound towards CDW at 3500. I was VFR, but wanted
the LOC22 into CDW (for practice, not because it's an annoying airport to
spot at a distance {8^). The way I worded the request (more or less) was:

...requesting class B at 3500 and LOC22 circle to land

[CDW was landing 27 and it was windy enough that I wasn't going to argue
that one.]

The response was something like "both requests approved as requested" and
he then mentioned, though I forget the wording, that I'd only be at 3500
for a few more moments.

No "cleared". Yet I felt that there was sufficient clarity in the
approval of my request.

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

I was flying with someone else (because I was doing approaches under
foggles). We discussed whether that constituted a valid clearance. My
copilot was sure that it was fine, and I was pretty sure.

But I did mention that, just as we passed "that line" (pointing to the
class B boundary on the GPS), he was PIC.

Perhaps my friend should drag out and send in a NASA form laugh?

- Andrew

In article ,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:47:13 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.

Hmm.

Yesterday, I was southbound towards CDW at 3500. I was VFR, but wanted
the LOC22 into CDW (for practice, not because it's an annoying airport to
spot at a distance {8^). The way I worded the request (more or less) was:

...requesting class B at 3500 and LOC22 circle to land

[CDW was landing 27 and it was windy enough that I wasn't going to argue
that one.]

The response was something like "both requests approved as requested" and
he then mentioned, though I forget the wording, that I'd only be at 3500
for a few more moments.

No "cleared". Yet I felt that there was sufficient clarity in the
approval of my request.

I'm glad you thought so. Did you think you had permission to enter the
CBAS? Were you planning on doing so? Did you?

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

Depends. Do you think you violated some FAR?

What I would have done in that situation was to read back, "Understand I'm
cleared into the Class Bravo".

I was flying with someone else (because I was doing approaches under
foggles). We discussed whether that constituted a valid clearance. My
copilot was sure that it was fine, and I was pretty sure.

If he didn't say the word "cleared", then it wasn't a clearance. At least
not one that I would be confident would stand up to a review of the tapes.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
What I would have done in that situation was to read back, "Understand I'm
cleared into the Class Bravo".

When I'm in that situation, I prefer "Confirm cleared into Class Bravo", to
make it explicit that I'm requesting a response.

--Gary

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:27:03 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

Depends. Do you think you violated some FAR?

You don't need to have violated any rules to file an ASRS report. The
idea of the system is to gather data on safety issues. Immunity is
just a bonus to encourage reports. If you think that an unsafe
condition exists, feel free to tell about it, regardless of whether
you think you're on the hook. Data submitted when you've done
everything right are just as useful as data submitted when you've
screwed up. Don't worry that the safety issue isn't serious enough,
let the NASA analysts worry about that. The report costs nothing
(well, postage), might protect you from FAA action, and might help
make the system safer. It's a win/win.

If you're worried that you need to file a NASA ASRS report, then why
not just do it and get some sleep?

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Has anyone tried the electronic filing yet? If so, how about a pirep?

RK Henry

The response was something like "both requests approved as requested" ...
No "cleared". Yet I felt that there was sufficient clarity in the
approval of my request.

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

Yes.

I agree there was sufficient clarity. However, if the FAA is willing to
bust people who don't hear "cleared" (or is willing to allow such a
rumor to circulate unchallenged) then they have to give us the correct
wording.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.


Odd, then, that that phrase appears nowhere in Part 91.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...
You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.

Odd, then, that that phrase appears nowhere in Part 91.

What other clearance would VFR traffic get that would allow them to enter
the Class B airspace? I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

I agree that the specific phraseology is not required. But *some* kind of
clearance is required, and that is stated in the FARs. I doubt VFR traffic
is going to get a landing clearance while still outside the Class B, and I'm
hard-pressed to think of another one that would be applicable to VFR
traffic.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

What other clearance would VFR traffic get that would allow them to enter
the Class B airspace? I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

I agree that the specific phraseology is not required. But *some* kind of
clearance is required, and that is stated in the FARs. I doubt VFR
traffic is going to get a landing clearance while still outside the Class
B, and I'm hard-pressed to think of another one that would be applicable
to VFR traffic.


How about "cleared for takeoff"? The regulation states, " The operator must
receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that
area before operating an aircraft in that area." If you're departing VFR
from the core airport in a Class B surface area wouldn't a takeoff clearance
meet the letter of the law?

Let's say you're doing practice instrument approaches under VFR near a
Class
B boundary, and the approach procedure requires you to enter Class B
airspace.
Wouldn't clearance for the approach meet the letter of the law?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

How about "cleared for takeoff"? The regulation states, " The operator must
receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that
area before operating an aircraft in that area." If you're departing VFR
from the core airport in a Class B surface area wouldn't a takeoff clearance
meet the letter of the law?

You would think, but ATC here always issues "Cleared into the class
Bravo via fly runway heading..." just as if they were issuing an IFR
clearance.