How do you find the limits of areas on a chart?

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

I see tons of restricted areas, MOAs, Class B, C, D, E airspace, and
the like on charts, but no clear indication of how to locate the
boundaries of these areas other than by pure guesstimate based on
looking at the chart.

Do you mean how do you find the boundary as depicted on the chart, or
how do you relate the depicted boundary to an actual physical location
out in the real world?

If the former, there's a legend printed on every chart.

If the latter, when all else fails, some pilots fall back on an advanced
technique that is all but forgotten in this age of GPS. It's called
"looking out the window for landmarks."

rg

Ron Garret writes:

Do you mean how do you find the boundary as depicted on the chart, or
how do you relate the depicted boundary to an actual physical location
out in the real world?

How do I relate it to the real world? In other words, how do I know,
as I fly along, whether I'm inside or outside a boundary? Very often
the boundaries cross largely empty areas of the chart, with no precise
indications of how to locate the boundary in the real world.

If the latter, when all else fails, some pilots fall back on an advanced
technique that is all but forgotten in this age of GPS. It's called
"looking out the window for landmarks."

But the charts don't have that many landmarks, and the boundaries
rarely seem to be based on landmarks; instead, they seem to have been
surveyed.

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

But the charts don't have that many landmarks, and the boundaries
rarely seem to be based on landmarks; instead, they seem to have been
surveyed.

WRONG AGAIN.

Maybe if you took the time to RESEARCH how to read a sectional, you will
find all sorts of goodies, such as power lines, lakes, rivers, cities,
points of interests that actually correlate with USING YOUR EYES outside
the window. And guess what, there are even roads depicted on the charts.

And this is only a small taste of what a chart can offer. DO YOUR RESEARCH
and you wouldn't be saying such silly things as above.

Allen

A Lieberma writes:

Maybe if you took the time to RESEARCH how to read a sectional, you will
find all sorts of goodies, such as power lines, lakes, rivers, cities,
points of interests that actually correlate with USING YOUR EYES outside
the window.

I've looked very carefully at sectionals. In the vast majority of
cases, there are no clear landmarks indicated that allow one to locate
the exact boundary of airspaces. The best one can do is allow a
margin of several miles or more, but in crowded areas that may not be
sufficient.

How do I know if I'm in the southwestern tip of the Turtle MOA on the
chart that covers Arizona, for example? There are no landmarks given.

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

A Lieberma writes:

Maybe if you took the time to RESEARCH how to read a sectional, you will
find all sorts of goodies, such as power lines, lakes, rivers, cities,
points of interests that actually correlate with USING YOUR EYES outside
the window.

I've looked very carefully at sectionals. In the vast majority of
cases, there are no clear landmarks indicated that allow one to locate
the exact boundary of airspaces. The best one can do is allow a
margin of several miles or more, but in crowded areas that may not be
sufficient.

How do I know if I'm in the southwestern tip of the Turtle MOA on the
chart that covers Arizona, for example? There are no landmarks given.


You would observe the Pinto Mountains intersecting the Sheep Hole Mountains,
and know that the edge of the MOA is about halfway between that and the Cadiz
Lake... It's pretty distinct, actually, if you know how to read a sectional.

Judah writes:

You would observe the Pinto Mountains intersecting the Sheep Hole Mountains,
and know that the edge of the MOA is about halfway between that and the Cadiz
Lake... It's pretty distinct, actually, if you know how to read a sectional.

You're too far south, and too far east. The western tip is actually
at N34°14'00" W115°30'00", and the southern border runs along the
aforementioned parallel, but without a reliable indicator of your
exact latitude and longitude in the cockpit, this doesn't help much
(although it can be readily seen from the sectional in this case).

The eastern extreme of the Pinto Mountains meets the southern extreme
of the Sheep Hole Mountains at about N34°04' W115°33', giving your
suggested position an error of about five miles. The adjacent V514
airway is only about eight miles across, so that's a pretty big error.

Unfortunately, by the time you've figured this all out, you've
collided with a fighter jet.

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Unfortunately, by the time you've figured this all out, you've
collided with a fighter jet.

Only if you were so paranoid about it that you sat there staring at your
charts and calculators instead of looking out the window.

However, since an MOA is nonrestrictive in nature, and there's no real harm
in being a few miles further outside it's boundary than you could be with a
GPS, looking out the window seems to suffice.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Judah writes:

You would observe the Pinto Mountains intersecting the Sheep Hole
Mountains, and know that the edge of the MOA is about halfway between
that and the Cadiz Lake... It's pretty distinct, actually, if you know
how to read a sectional.

You're too far south, and too far east. The western tip is actually
at N34°14'00" W115°30'00", and the southern border runs along the
aforementioned parallel, but without a reliable indicator of your
exact latitude and longitude in the cockpit, this doesn't help much
(although it can be readily seen from the sectional in this case).

That depends on your goal. If your goal is to stay clear of the MOA, you're
in exactly the right place - a couple of miles outside the MOA. If you goal
is to fly into the MOA through it's southwestern tip, you might just aim
for the north end of the Coxcomb Mountains.

If your goal is to fly VFR between the Turtle and Bristol MOAs, assuming
you were starting at or near TNP, you would probably aim for Dale Lake,
then fly over the Sheep Hole Mountains toward the western tip of Cadiz
Lake. Then you would look for the Cadiz airport and the 3239' peak just
south of Danby (both would likely be easily discernable) and fly directly
between the two, keeping the 1024' hill off to your left. Then you could
follow the power lines up and through, or you could keep the Old Woman
Mountains off to your right a couple of miles until reaching the Clipper
Mountains.

If you were further making your way to Eagle, you'd see the power lines
intersect Rte 40, and turn right aiming for the Colorado River.

I've never been to that area of the country myself, but it sure looks
pretty easy to navigate.

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

How do I know if I'm in the southwestern tip of the Turtle MOA on the
chart that covers Arizona, for example?

You are mightily confused, my friend. The Turtle MOA is (mostly) in
California, not Arizona.

There are no landmarks given.

Do you see Cadiz lake?

I've looked very carefully at sectionals.

Apparently not.

rg

Ron Garret writes:

You are mightily confused, my friend. The Turtle MOA is (mostly) in
California, not Arizona.

The chart I'm looking at covers Arizona more than California, it
seems.

Do you see Cadiz lake?

Sure, it's huge.

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