Todays Cost of getting a PPL

In article .com,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

No offense to John (whom I applaud for his persistence -- something few
student pilots show), but he was fleeced. There is no way a PPL has
to cost that much, and it does GA an injustice to publicize his unusual
experience.

Jay, go back and read his recent posting. He included EVERYTHING!
His actual instructor/airplane rate was less $85/hr.
His spreading out the training over 2.5 years is where the additional
expense occurred.
Dispite this, as some others have posted, $100/hr for a C172 and $40/hr
for the instructor will still add up to $7,000 (50 hours) to $9,000 (70
hours) cash outlay for a PPL.
That is daunting. Try to find a high school or college kid who has that
kind of pocket change.
Still, it is in keeping with the typical pilot profile. Married, house
paid for (or almost), kids out of the house and done with college, age
50-55. This is the demographic with disposable income.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in
oups.com:

The lower-priced flight school at my field is now the Cessna Pilot
Center (which was higher priced in 2001). Over the years, there prices
have inflated as well. They train in Millenium edition Cessna 172 (year
2000 or later) at about $120/hr wet. The instructor is $46/hr. They cut
the prices 10% if you pay a $600 club fee.

If I did it again at today's rates, It would probably cost me betwen
$10k and $12k..

Only if you're crazy, wealthy, or both.

There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.

Not in the NYC area...

When I first went to investigate my flight training, I stopped into
MillionAir at TEB. They had a 152 for about $60/hr wet.

When I asked them about training in it, they told me they didn't have an
instructor small enough to be able to do it right now. It was an incentive
for me to lose about 40lbs (most of which I have since gained back,
admittedly, and am trying to lose it again). But I haven't weighed 170 since
I was in 7th grade...

I don't consider myself overly wealthy or overly crazy (maybe just a little
of each). But I do value my time at a rate that would make it illogical to
drive 2 hours round trip for a 90 minute flight lesson in order to save
$50... If you factor in the cost of gas and wear and tear on the car, plus
the likelihood that I might get stuck in traffic and be there longer than 2
hours, it's not a very good investment.

The reality is that it is making it tougher for people to get private pilot
training in this area. I tried to convince my cousin to start flying -
actually, I didn't have to work very hard. He was really eager to do it
without much prodding from me. I took him with me on a few flights, including
the NYC Hudson River tour. He went for a discovery flight, looked around at a
couple of flight schools, and even looked into getting financing for his
training. He was serious.

But in the end, he couldn't justify it because the cost was more than he
could bear.

B A R R Y wrote in
:

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:47:40 GMT, Judah wrote:


If I did it again at today's rates, It would probably cost me betwen
$10k and $12k..

To put that in perspective, I have neighbors that drop $28,000 on a
"towable RV", formerly known as a camping trailer, use it for two
weeks and sell it next year for $20,000. G

For me, the cost would still be justifiable, because I fly myself to many
customer meetings and installation jobs. But if I were just going to get my
pilot's license for recreational flying, it might be much tougher to justify
unless I had that kinda cash to drop on a recreational activity.

I started my training in Denver in 2002. I chose the 172SP @ about $108/hr
and the instructor was $35/hr plus $30/mo club dues. Three times a week
training and then my company decided to move us all to Oregon right before
the check ride. I continued after 3 months of looking for a school and bad
weather in a 172SP @ $125/hr, $45/hr for the instructor but no club dues.

With the time off and having to do some relearning as well as show my
instructor I was safe to solo my total time to check ride was 83 hours.
Adding up everything including books and fees I spent about $10,000 maybe a
bit more. I'm not including my headset or charts and A/FD's.

If I would have been able to stay in Colorado and not have had to travel so
much for work towards the end I was on track to spend about $7000.

It's all good. Probably the best money I've ever spent. Even better I'm
back home in Colorado where the Sun shines most of the time and I can fly
East without worry.

Paul.

"john smith" wrote in message
...
After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
$12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
and completions.
Where you live:
What are the going rates for dual instruction?

What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

The rule of thumb really is: If you want to cost-effectively obtain
your PPL, treat it like a semester of college. Fly 3 days per week
(Mon/Wed/Fri) and study the other two (Tue/Thu), or wait until you can ...

So all you have to do is quit your job, or wait until you're 70 years
old. Simple. And make sure you have a few thousand dollars in your
checking account before you quit, so you can pay for the license.

The money part is a given -- there's nothing you can do to change that.
Same with golfing, boating, RV'ing, or any other leisure activity --
you gotta pay to play. You're gonna need a thousand bucks in the bank
to get started, and it usually (if you trust the FBO) makes sense to
pay for lessons in $500 increments, since many places give you a
significant discount if you do it that way.

The time part is entirely up to you. I was a working dad, and I got up
at 0-dark-thirty every morning, drove 45 minutes one-way (in the
winter, in Wisconsin) to the airport where my CFI was based (not the
local airport), flew for an hour, and then drove in to work.

There were days when the weather would be pea-soup fog by the time I
got there, and we would have to scrub. There were other days where it
was crap where I was, but perfect at the airport, which was inland from
Lake Michigan quite a ways. And the cold was brutal.

It was hard -- sometimes very hard -- to find the time to do it,
between the demands of work and family, but I had a finite amount of
money and knew that if I didn't do it then, I'd probably never have the
chance again. I had spent 35 years on the ground, looking up, and it
was literally "now or never".

Which is why I encourage every young person I meet to learn to fly NOW,
damn the expense. Money is replaceable -- time is not. I now feel
that my first 35 years on this earth were wasted, wanting to fly but
not being able to find my way aloft. I've done my best to make up for
lost time in the interceding 12 years, but I can never, EVER buy those
35 years (well, okay, 18, after the minimum PPL age of 17) back.

I don't know how old you are, Manic, but if you want to fly don't wait.
The papers are full of young people in the obituaries every day.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

snip

And there's nothing wrong with that -- but then don't come back here
and scare the bejeesus out of lurkers by trumpeting that it now costs
5-figures to get your Private. Cuz it doesn't.


I was not trying to scare anyone. I put down what I spent. I have been
lurking in this group and reading/posting to the student group for a while,
this topic comes up from time to time. It seemed to be information people
wanted to know. I tried to qualify the amount by clearly stating that I
included EVERYTHING. There are two previous posts that attempt to define
what I meant by everything. I am also not bitching about what I spent, it
cost what it cost.

I know my timeframe to finish was longer than average, and I know why also.
I put the reasons for a lot of the delays in the second post. I will
restate some of them in case you missed them:
1. I was sent out of town for 2 -3 weeks at a time during the first year.
2. I got airsick during a lot of the early lessons, clarification - I PUKED,
these lessons were not very informative.
3. My instructor was out of town for some extended periods during training.

I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably priced,
my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.

I do not think that coming in here and speaking honestly about my experience
is a disservice to GA, as you put it. Pie in the sky estimates of a PPL for
3500 bucks and flying 3 times a week, while holding down a full time job and
raising kids is more of a disservice.

Look at your number, seriously. The numbers thrown around in here for plane
rental have ranged from 65 an hour wet for a c152 (that was me) up to 130
for a c172. Instructors have ranged from 22 to 40 an hour. Lets just do
some simple math.

20 hours dual at 110 an hour (80 for the plane and 30 for the instructor) =
2200
20 hours solo at 80 and hour. = 1600

OK, we are at 3800, 300 more than your pie in the sky estimate. We still
have to get a medical, I think mine was 100. Books, charts, a headset,
plotter, e6b, A/FD, flight bag etc. We are also assuming that you have no
ground time with the instructor, you just get in the plane and fly. I don't
know about you guys, but I had ground sessions with my instructor on
weather, FAR/AIM topics, night flying, aerodynamic principles etc. He
donated a lot of that time, but some of it is required and I had to pay for
it. The written test was 50 or 75, written study materials were 100 to 150.
Anyway, the point is you are over 3500 by a lot.

3 days of flying a week may be doable in the west, but here in N. Alabama,
especially in the summertime, you get these huge black clouds a lot in the
afternoons, you know the time after most people get off of work. I have
been taught that little airplanes do not like huge black clouds and it is a
good idea not to fly around them. So I would schedule three days a week,
and usually get to fly one of them. Not always the weather, sometimes I
could not get a plane, and sometimes I could not get the instructor.

Anyway, I was not trying to scare anyone away. I was certainly not bitching
about the cost. I put the information out there and was as honest as I
could be about what I spent. Some of that cost was not specifically for my
training, I will keep using my headset, plotter and e6b. Also, I will say
one more time, I included EVERYTHING that I could think of.

Remember it is not a contest, I was not trying to get the cheapest license
in the least amount of time of anyone else in the group, I just wanted to
learn how to fly and it was harder for me than for others.

John
PP-ASEL

I was not trying to scare anyone. I put down what I spent. I have been
lurking in this group and reading/posting to the student group for a while,
this topic comes up from time to time. It seemed to be information people
wanted to know. I tried to qualify the amount by clearly stating that I
included EVERYTHING. There are two previous posts that attempt to define
what I meant by everything. I am also not bitching about what I spent, it
cost what it cost.

I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
optimal, nor even typical. That's my only point in posting.

2. I got airsick during a lot of the early lessons, clarification - I PUKED,
these lessons were not very informative.

Clearly! :-) And, as I said, I applaud your persistence. You let
nothing stop you, and that's the key to success -- in anything.

3. My instructor was out of town for some extended periods during training.

This can be a real problem. Mary and I were lucky enough to be with
the same CFIs from start to finish (another advantage of
compressed-time training), and my guy owned the FBO, so he was ALWAYS
available.

I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably priced,
my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

I do not think that coming in here and speaking honestly about my experience
is a disservice to GA, as you put it. Pie in the sky estimates of a PPL for
3500 bucks and flying 3 times a week, while holding down a full time job and
raising kids is more of a disservice.

I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

You speaking honestly is definitely a service to everyone here, and I
don't want to imply otherwise. But don't expect everyone to just nod
sagely and say "Too bad" -- that's not the way it works here!

:-)

Look at your number, seriously. The numbers thrown around in here for plane
rental have ranged from 65 an hour wet for a c152 (that was me) up to 130
for a c172. Instructors have ranged from 22 to 40 an hour. Lets just do
some simple math.

20 hours dual at 110 an hour (80 for the plane and 30 for the instructor) =
2200
20 hours solo at 80 and hour. = 1600

OK, we are at 3800, 300 more than your pie in the sky estimate.

My "pie in the sky estimate" was an actual number -- from 1994. As I
said, Mary's cost somewhat more, thanks to inflation (she got hers in
1997). I'm sure it's higher yet, now.

But it ain't 12 grand.

We still
have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.

You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

Books, charts, a headset,
plotter, e6b, A/FD, flight bag etc.

My first head set cost (I am not kidding) $7, used. My plotter, E6B
and flight bag were all used, mostly gifts. I've never owned an A/FD
-- just borrowed 'em.

We are also assuming that you have no
ground time with the instructor, you just get in the plane and fly. I don't
know about you guys, but I had ground sessions with my instructor on
weather, FAR/AIM topics, night flying, aerodynamic principles etc. He
donated a lot of that time, but some of it is required and I had to pay for
it.

My instructor never charged for ground time.

The written test was 50 or 75, written study materials were 100 to 150.
Anyway, the point is you are over 3500 by a lot.

Not in 1994 dollars.

3 days of flying a week may be doable in the west, but here in N. Alabama,
especially in the summertime, you get these huge black clouds a lot in the
afternoons, you know the time after most people get off of work.

In Wisconsin, in the winter, we scrubbed a lot of flights. The trick
is to schedule 3 flights a week, and plan on making two of them.
Between scheduling conflicts, weather, mechanical issues, that's about
what it works out to.

Anyway, I was not trying to scare anyone away. I was certainly not bitching
about the cost. I put the information out there and was as honest as I
could be about what I spent.

I know, and that's why I said "No offense". I'm not faulting you for
posting -- I welcome it -- but I want everyone in this forum to know
that your experience is NOT typical, and that they can earn their wings
for less -- MUCH less.

Remember it is not a contest, I was not trying to get the cheapest license
in the least amount of time of anyone else in the group, I just wanted to
learn how to fly and it was harder for me than for others.

And that is all that counts, in the end. We all tip our hats to you,
John -- you had a tough row to hoe, and made it through!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was not trying to scare anyone. I put down what I spent. I have been
lurking in this group and reading/posting to the student group for a
while,
this topic comes up from time to time. It seemed to be information
people
wanted to know. I tried to qualify the amount by clearly stating that I
included EVERYTHING. There are two previous posts that attempt to define
what I meant by everything. I am also not bitching about what I spent,
it
cost what it cost.

I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
optimal, nor even typical. That's my only point in posting.

I thought I did, I clearly stated that it took me 2.5 years.

2. I got airsick during a lot of the early lessons, clarification - I
PUKED,
these lessons were not very informative.

Clearly! :-) And, as I said, I applaud your persistence. You let
nothing stop you, and that's the key to success -- in anything.


Thanks!

3. My instructor was out of town for some extended periods during
training.

This can be a real problem. Mary and I were lucky enough to be with
the same CFIs from start to finish (another advantage of
compressed-time training), and my guy owned the FBO, so he was ALWAYS
available.

I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably
priced,
my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

From an online dictionary, the definition of fleeced -

fleeced, fleec·ing, fleec·es
1. To defraud of money or property; swindle.

To say I was fleeced implies one of two things:
1. Dishonesty on the part of my flight school/instructor.
2. Stupidity on my part.

Which one of these are you implying?


I do not think that coming in here and speaking honestly about my
experience
is a disservice to GA, as you put it. Pie in the sky estimates of a PPL
for
3500 bucks and flying 3 times a week, while holding down a full time job
and
raising kids is more of a disservice.

I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

You speaking honestly is definitely a service to everyone here, and I
don't want to imply otherwise. But don't expect everyone to just nod
sagely and say "Too bad" -- that's not the way it works here!

OK, see above and below. I will play for a while, but these UseNet
argumnets are usually unwinable by either party. :-)


:-)

Look at your number, seriously. The numbers thrown around in here for
plane
rental have ranged from 65 an hour wet for a c152 (that was me) up to 130
for a c172. Instructors have ranged from 22 to 40 an hour. Lets just do
some simple math.

20 hours dual at 110 an hour (80 for the plane and 30 for the instructor)
=
2200
20 hours solo at 80 and hour. = 1600

OK, we are at 3800, 300 more than your pie in the sky estimate.

My "pie in the sky estimate" was an actual number -- from 1994. As I
said, Mary's cost somewhat more, thanks to inflation (she got hers in
1997). I'm sure it's higher yet, now.

But it ain't 12 grand.

I never said it would cost everyone who goes for their PPL after me 12
grand. I said I spent 12 grand.


We still
have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.

You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

I get one about every five years, my insurance pays for it. My GP is not
qualified to give FAA medical. Will insurance pay for a flight medical? If
so, I did not know it. At any rate, it was directly related to my flying so
I included it.


Books, charts, a headset,
plotter, e6b, A/FD, flight bag etc.

My first head set cost (I am not kidding) $7, used. My plotter, E6B
and flight bag were all used, mostly gifts. I've never owned an A/FD
-- just borrowed 'em.

Experiences differ, I had to buy mine.


We are also assuming that you have no
ground time with the instructor, you just get in the plane and fly. I
don't
know about you guys, but I had ground sessions with my instructor on
weather, FAR/AIM topics, night flying, aerodynamic principles etc. He
donated a lot of that time, but some of it is required and I had to pay
for
it.

My instructor never charged for ground time.

Mine charged for some of it, did not for some of it. But I included the time
I was charged.


The written test was 50 or 75, written study materials were 100 to 150.
Anyway, the point is you are over 3500 by a lot.

Not in 1994 dollars.

If you know a way I can spend 1994 dollars in 2006, please tell me. Or
better yet let me choose to spend 1900 dollars in 2006. Lets see, I go to
the Porsche dealer and tell them I want a 2007 911 Carrera, but I want to
pay for it in 1960 dollars. I wonder if that will work. Youre
rationalizing away cost here..

But I agree, if you can finish the ticket in 40 - 60 hours, the cost will be
much less than what I spent. But, I will repeat here that I was not
fleeced. I knew exactly what I was spending and why through the whole
process.

3 days of flying a week may be doable in the west, but here in N.
Alabama,
especially in the summertime, you get these huge black clouds a lot in
the
afternoons, you know the time after most people get off of work.

In Wisconsin, in the winter, we scrubbed a lot of flights. The trick
is to schedule 3 flights a week, and plan on making two of them.
Between scheduling conflicts, weather, mechanical issues, that's about
what it works out to.

I would schedule three, when I could. But we agree here, it was rare that
you would get all three of them for a multitude of reasons. I only did the
before work thing a couple of times, I am NOT a morning person. It was not
enjoyable so I did not do it anymore.


Anyway, I was not trying to scare anyone away. I was certainly not
bitching
about the cost. I put the information out there and was as honest as I
could be about what I spent.

I know, and that's why I said "No offense". I'm not faulting you for
posting -- I welcome it -- but I want everyone in this forum to know
that your experience is NOT typical, and that they can earn their wings
for less -- MUCH less.

I agree, and I tried to qualify what I posted by also giving the time frame,
number of hours flown and other realted information about my training.


Remember it is not a contest, I was not trying to get the cheapest
license
in the least amount of time of anyone else in the group, I just wanted to
learn how to fly and it was harder for me than for others.

And that is all that counts, in the end. We all tip our hats to you,
John -- you had a tough row to hoe, and made it through!

Thanks for that! Maybe I will make out to your hotel one day, it looks like
an interesting place to visit.

John

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Judah writes:

But in the end, he couldn't justify it because the cost was more than he
could bear.

It's a rich man's hobby.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
optimal, nor even typical.

I think "everybody" knows by now.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

Fleecing, by definition, is intentional. He had good reasons to spemd
more than necessary. In fact, under his circumstances, it could be
argued that it =was= necessary to spend that much.

I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

He did it too. You spent (morning) time, he spent money. Who's to say
for another which is more valuable?

We still
have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.
You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

How smart is it to get your annual checkup from your AME?

Remember, he didn't say it =had= to cost him that much. He said it
=did= cost him that much. That was the (total) amount he chose to spend.

When I got my license I didn't have to get up at 0-dark-thirty. You
did. There's more to it than money.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.