Winds A Factor In Lidle Crash

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
Matt Whiting wrote:

Ron Lee wrote:

The real cause was he was an idiotic and inept pilot that day who
left his wife without a husband and kids fatherless.

Fortunately, being an idiotic and inept usenet poster is more forgiving...


Matt

I suppose you would fly with a pilot like him? Would you let your
wife or kids fly with him if he were alive and just narrowly missed
the building?

Maybe you would like to fly with the pilots who crashed at LEX?

There are idiot pilots and we have seen a few cases lately.
Unfortunately they take people with them instead of just themselves
sometimes.

Ron Lee

Ron;

Let me explain to you how this works in the real world.

Even the most highly trained pilots in the world screw up from time to time.
Trust me, I know quite a few of them :-)
Flying is an endeavor where you operate in an environment that is constantly
trying to kill you and everybody in the airplane with you. Its that simple!
The "trick" as we say in the business, is to get yourself to the point where
you can handle this environment on a constant basis. This means that a
pilot, from the beginning student to the long time ATP and CFI, has to be
constantly up to the task.
A pilot's level of competence changes from day to day; actually minute to
minute really. You can be sharp and on top of things one minute and off your
edge the next minute just long enough to kill yourself.
Keeping this edge sharp as a pilot is really a full time job, and even then
there's no guarantee that you won't have a 2 second lapse and forget
something that will kill you.
Flying an airplane is controlling a moving object that includes you and the
people with you in a 3 dimensional area that exists at very high speed. This
can be likened to having someone throw random knives at you from twenty feet
away while you constantly try and duck out of the way and not get hit with
one. Given those conditions, you can get some idea of how long one could do
this without dodging the wrong way and taking a knife right in the face.
All this doesn't mean a pilot can't prepare for, and be able to function
properly in the midst of all this potential danger. It does mean however,
that all of us....and I mean ALL of us, have those moments in flying where
we do exactly the wrong thing. If we're lucky, and what we screwed up on
wasn't at the exact wrong time, we survive, learn from what happened, and
truck on trying never to replicate THAT mistake again.
These two guys in the Cirrus had one of the moments I'm talking about here.
They weren't stupid, and I'm sure they didn't want to die. They screwed up,
and the numbers played out against them. Instead of having one of those
"experiences" I'm talking about, they didn't make it.
What we have to do as pilots is learn from their mistake so that WE become
just a little bit safer and our edge gets just a little sharper.
This preconception some people have about pilots having to be perfect just
doesn't wash in the real world. I've seen pilots with thousands of hours
flying the hottest airplanes in the world that I knew to be the best of the
best killed right in front of me; the result of an instant of distraction.
It happens.
Instead of putting these guys down which doesn't bring them back or enhance
the flight safety issue, just realize they were two guys who made a mistake.
God knows they paid for it.
Just learn and move on. Concentrate just a bit more on sharpening your own
edge and at least something good will have come from this accident.
Dudley Henriques

On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:37:01 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote in
:

These two guys in the Cirrus had one of the moments I'm talking about here.
They weren't stupid, and I'm sure they didn't want to die. They screwed up,
and the numbers played out against them. Instead of having one of those
"experiences" I'm talking about, they didn't make it.

From the radar track available he
http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/N929CD...rn_3radars.pdf it would
seem that flying up the corridor when there's a cross wind isn't very
smart. When they entered the corridor, the die was cast baring
climbing above the roof tops, entering Bravo airspace, or executing a
chandelle type course reversal (or ditching).

A prudent pilot who mentally flew the route on the ground before
departing would stand a good chance of discovering this gotcha, and
planned one of the three actions mentioned above, or at least
calculated the turning radius of his aircraft beforehand.

Planning is the key.

Is there any evidence so far indicating they got a weather briefing
immediately before departure, and that the cross wind had been
observed and reported?

Disclaimer: Because of the limited amount of factual information
available at this time, and my complete lack of familiarity with the
location, my comments are primarily speculative as they relate to this
specific mishap.

I'm pretty much in the dark on it as I haven't researched it at all. I did
see the track though. It looks like they shallowed the turn for some reason
then tightened it up again. Its puzzling at best???
Dudley Henriques

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:37:01 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote in
:

These two guys in the Cirrus had one of the moments I'm talking about
here.
They weren't stupid, and I'm sure they didn't want to die. They screwed
up,
and the numbers played out against them. Instead of having one of those
"experiences" I'm talking about, they didn't make it.

From the radar track available he
http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/N929CD...rn_3radars.pdf it would
seem that flying up the corridor when there's a cross wind isn't very
smart. When they entered the corridor, the die was cast baring
climbing above the roof tops, entering Bravo airspace, or executing a
chandelle type course reversal (or ditching).

A prudent pilot who mentally flew the route on the ground before
departing would stand a good chance of discovering this gotcha, and
planned one of the three actions mentioned above, or at least
calculated the turning radius of his aircraft beforehand.

Planning is the key.

Is there any evidence so far indicating they got a weather briefing
immediately before departure, and that the cross wind had been
observed and reported?

Disclaimer: Because of the limited amount of factual information
available at this time, and my complete lack of familiarity with the
location, my comments are primarily speculative as they relate to this
specific mishap.

Larry Dighera wrote:
From the radar track available he
http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/N929CD...rn_3radars.pdf it would
seem that flying up the corridor when there's a cross wind isn't very
smart. When they entered the corridor, the die was cast baring
climbing above the roof tops, entering Bravo airspace, or executing a
chandelle type course reversal (or ditching).

I'd love to see radar tracks for other aircraft, either from that day or
days with similar weather. It would be illuminating.

Planning is the key.

Agreed. While I was in training, I flew the Hudson River Corridor with my
CFI. When we reached the Statue of Liberty, we got clearance to enter the
class B airspace and overfly EWR. I remember thinking that when I did it
on my own, I'd better have a REALLY good plan for how I was going to
handle it if Newark Tower declined the clearance.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
From the radar track available he
http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/N929CD...rn_3radars.pdf it would
seem that flying up the corridor when there's a cross wind isn't very
smart. When they entered the corridor, the die was cast baring
climbing above the roof tops, entering Bravo airspace, or executing a
chandelle type course reversal (or ditching).

Did they ever mention what was the height of the building that they "became
one with"? Was it possible to overfly the building without busting the
Class-B? Turn off the Mode-C, go a bit above the Class-B, drop back down
and turn back on the Mode-C... At the very worst, bust the Class-B for a
second, drop back down, and hope no one notices... Even if they do, they
have to get your tail number... Take the "scenic route" home, stopping at
various airports along the way to confuse any tracking that they might do of
your aircraft... No matter what you do, it's got to be better than turning
your new fiberglass aircraft into a pile of shards...

From the radar track available he
http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/N929CD...rn_3radars.pdf it would
seem that flying up the corridor when there's a cross wind isn't very
smart. When they entered the corridor, the die was cast baring
climbing above the roof tops, entering Bravo airspace, or executing a
chandelle type course reversal (or ditching).

Did they ever mention what was the height of the building that they
"became
one with"? Was it possible to overfly the building without busting the
Class-B? Turn off the Mode-C, go a bit above the Class-B, drop back down
and turn back on the Mode-C... At the very worst, bust the Class-B for a
second, drop back down, and hope no one notices... Even if they do, they
have to get your tail number... Take the "scenic route" home, stopping at
various airports along the way to confuse any tracking that they might do
of
your aircraft... No matter what you do, it's got to be better than turning
your new fiberglass aircraft into a pile of shards...


I am not familiar with the area, but took a look at an online version of the
New York Terminal Area Chart. My best guess is that the Condominium
building is within the Class B surface area, and therefore they must have
busted the airspace a few seconds before they hit it.

In addition, I believe that this is exactly the sort of problem that the
NASA form was designed to solve. IIRC the idea was that a pilot could pop
up, 'fess up, and provide observations and resulting statistical data in
exchange for immunity--provided that it did not appear to become habitual.
The outcome in this case has deprived all of us of the pilots' observations

Peter

"Grumman-581" wrote:

Did they ever mention what was the height of the building that they "became
one with"? Was it possible to overfly the building without busting the
Class-B? Turn off the Mode-C, go a bit above the Class-B, drop back down
and turn back on the Mode-C... At the very worst, bust the Class-B for a
second, drop back down, and hope no one notices... Even if they do, they
have to get your tail number... Take the "scenic route" home, stopping at
various airports along the way to confuse any tracking that they might do of
your aircraft... No matter what you do, it's got to be better than turning
your new fiberglass aircraft into a pile of shards...

Exactly. Busting Class B (not in the path of jets) is far better than
what they did. Better yet get a clearance to enter Class B. So IMO
that was not just a minor error than anyone here would have done (But
for the grace rationale), it was gross stupidity that left two
"pilots" dead.

Ron Lee

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:37:01 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote in
:

These two guys in the Cirrus had one of the moments I'm talking about
here.
They weren't stupid, and I'm sure they didn't want to die. They screwed
up,
and the numbers played out against them. Instead of having one of those
"experiences" I'm talking about, they didn't make it.

From the radar track available he
http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2006/N929CD...rn_3radars.pdf it would
seem that flying up the corridor when there's a cross wind isn't very
smart. When they entered the corridor, the die was cast baring
climbing above the roof tops, entering Bravo airspace, or executing a
chandelle type course reversal (or ditching).

A prudent pilot who mentally flew the route on the ground before
departing would stand a good chance of discovering this gotcha, and
planned one of the three actions mentioned above, or at least
calculated the turning radius of his aircraft beforehand.

Planning is the key.

Is there any evidence so far indicating they got a weather briefing
immediately before departure, and that the cross wind had been
observed and reported?

Disclaimer: Because of the limited amount of factual information
available at this time, and my complete lack of familiarity with the
location, my comments are primarily speculative as they relate to this
specific mishap.


Was there anything, other than traffic, that would have barred Lidle from
moving to the left side of the corridor and making a right turn into the
wind?

Was there anything, other than traffic, that would have barred Lidle from
moving to the left side of the corridor and making a right turn into the
wind?

Dunno, but if he wasn't thinking of wind (and 8 knots isn't much if
you're not in a narrow canyon) he may simply been keeping to the right,
like road traffic. I've done that turn before, racking a 150 over on
its wing, and thought nothing of it.

I do find it interesting how far off the three radars are. This raises
a question of how accurate they are considered to be as evidence in an
airspace bust. I do remember many years ago being accused of being a
mile off centerline when I was dead on on an approach in California.
The aircraft ahead was similarly accused - I assume their radar was out
of alignment.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
Matt Whiting wrote:

Ron Lee wrote:

The real cause was he was an idiotic and inept pilot that day who
left his wife without a husband and kids fatherless.

Fortunately, being an idiotic and inept usenet poster is more
forgiving...


Matt

I suppose you would fly with a pilot like him? Would you let your
wife or kids fly with him if he were alive and just narrowly missed
the building?

Maybe you would like to fly with the pilots who crashed at LEX?

There are idiot pilots and we have seen a few cases lately.
Unfortunately they take people with them instead of just themselves
sometimes.

Ron Lee

Ron;

Let me explain to you how this works in the real world.

Even the most highly trained pilots in the world screw up from time to
time. Trust me, I know quite a few of them :-)
Flying is an endeavor where you operate in an environment that is
constantly trying to kill you and everybody in the airplane with you. Its
that simple! The "trick" as we say in the business, is to get yourself to
the point where you can handle this environment on a constant basis. This
means that a pilot, from the beginning student to the long time ATP and
CFI, has to be constantly up to the task.
A pilot's level of competence changes from day to day; actually minute to
minute really. You can be sharp and on top of things one minute and off
your edge the next minute just long enough to kill yourself.
Keeping this edge sharp as a pilot is really a full time job, and even
then there's no guarantee that you won't have a 2 second lapse and forget
something that will kill you.
Flying an airplane is controlling a moving object that includes you and
the people with you in a 3 dimensional area that exists at very high
speed. This can be likened to having someone throw random knives at you
from twenty feet away while you constantly try and duck out of the way and
not get hit with one. Given those conditions, you can get some idea of how
long one could do this without dodging the wrong way and taking a knife
right in the face.
All this doesn't mean a pilot can't prepare for, and be able to function
properly in the midst of all this potential danger. It does mean however,
that all of us....and I mean ALL of us, have those moments in flying where
we do exactly the wrong thing. If we're lucky, and what we screwed up on
wasn't at the exact wrong time, we survive, learn from what happened, and
truck on trying never to replicate THAT mistake again.
These two guys in the Cirrus had one of the moments I'm talking about
here. They weren't stupid, and I'm sure they didn't want to die. They
screwed up, and the numbers played out against them. Instead of having one
of those "experiences" I'm talking about, they didn't make it.
What we have to do as pilots is learn from their mistake so that WE become
just a little bit safer and our edge gets just a little sharper.
This preconception some people have about pilots having to be perfect just
doesn't wash in the real world. I've seen pilots with thousands of hours
flying the hottest airplanes in the world that I knew to be the best of
the best killed right in front of me; the result of an instant of
distraction. It happens.
Instead of putting these guys down which doesn't bring them back or
enhance the flight safety issue, just realize they were two guys who made
a mistake. God knows they paid for it.
Just learn and move on. Concentrate just a bit more on sharpening your own
edge and at least something good will have come from this accident.
Dudley Henriques


Hear, Hear.

Al G