Airbus 380

Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek



They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State

"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek



They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
the price, it's marketing.


Shawn

as i bury myself in the flak shelter.........
We are often reminded of the hardships endured by our forefathers in the gliding community to get us to where we now are. Wooden ships, breezy clubrooms if any, dodgy tugs, doped fabric.
C'mon you old codgers, with all due respect, this sport is DYING. What has been done is WHY it is dying. This train of thought is killing us!
To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place!
There will always be a place for your beloved antiques, but please, dont force them on the youth or learners of today because you had to endure that yourself.
Get your students into that fast, slippery Carbon/kevlar/unobtainuim ship as soon as possible, and keep the passion alive or we will all be dreaming about gliding instead of doing it.

Do you notice the interest in F1 car racing? Do you think those punters standing around at car races dream of driving the race car, or the Model T Ford at uncle Bobs farm?
Do you look bored at the Hornets in an airshow or look awestruck at the balloons?

Its all about passion, DONT KILL IT!

The real expense in gliding comes from suits in insurance companies, expensive launches, fees for landing, fees for governments to restrict us, blah blah blah, not the actual cost of the machine!
Gliders have never been more affordable or accessable than they are right now, although the top ships are damned expensive, the top anything is damned expensive.

What we have done has led us to where we are. Its not a good place. It may see your days out but not my kids days, nor theirs and I am ripping the sport off if I dont put back in what I have got out of it. Is that your own position, you should ask?

We need change and the attitude that newbies should lump around the field in POS is a perfect place to start. Try this-

"gone solo young feller? Great!"
" Lets get the (insert hottest club ship) out next Sunday and I will DI it and set you up, you will be fine, its a great fast, sleek glider"

Note NOT great first glider, or trainer/learner/stable/forgiving/safe glider, -push the damn thing for heavans sake! KEEP THE PASSION

Get to the field and get them in it. Dont suffer them with the gadgets, its still about stick and rudder, get them to it ASAP and watch them roll up with their mates next month.

Once we have the newbie hooked, he/she WILL continue in a ship of their own, probably lower down the scale and more within the budget we are all constrained with.
BUT they will be one of us now, instead of looking elsewhere for a sport which will interest them.

SO what occurs?
Newbie is hooked, buys second hand glider.
Old hand sells secondhand glider to newbie, buys new glider for himself.
Sales for glider manufactureres go up, technology and skill go up, processes get simpler and cheaper by volume, gliders get cheaper!
What a shock!
Dont believe me?

How much is a new Ferrari, Maserati, Viper or Corvette? The things are everywhere, often driven by young folks wealthier than I. Good on them, why dont they fly?
Ask yourself, should they drive an old volkswagon just because they are new at driving?
Would they be passionate about driving in the old volkswagon? Dont bother with the safety bull**** argument, the two are different and shouldnt be used as an excuse.

CHANGE IT ALL NOW, start in your own head.
Or we all go down, make no mistake.

Bagmaker,
looking forward to the gin being spluttered through large droopy moustaches at him next weekend at the club.

bagmaker wrote:
"gone solo young feller? Great!"
" Lets get the (insert hottest club ship) out next Sunday and I will DI
it and set you up, you will be fine, its a great fast, sleek glider"
Note NOT great first glider, or trainer/learner/stable/forgiving/safe
glider, -push the damn thing for heavans sake!

It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
means higher annual/launch fees.

Bartek

wrote:

It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
means higher annual/launch fees.

Bartek

OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
to maintain than many older gliders.

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
seater made from glass?

If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
and elsewhere all the time.

Robert Mudd
Moriarty, New Mexico USA

bagmaker wrote:
..../...

To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may
well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place!

Well said. I'm a case in point.

My background is over 30 years flying competitive Free Flight model gliders.

Back in the late 80s or early 90s I was at a couple of trial flight
evenings with ASK-13s as the aircraft. I enjoyed the evenings, but never
had the urge to learn to fly.

In 1999 during an aviation related holiday I took a trial flight in an
ASK-21 and was instantly hooked. I spent the winter researching local
clubs and joined up in spring 2000. My club's fleet is all glass and
I've never looked back, learning in ASK-21, G103 and Puchacz, then
working up the club fleet through Juniors to Pegase and Discus.

Currently I own a lightly Streifenedered Standard Libelle and love it to
bits.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Shawn wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
the price, it's marketing.


Shawn

I will agree with you up to a point. "MONEY" in the sense is not just
money...it is the time involved, it is the atmosphere of your
surroundings, it is the people they interact with...all of that
combined together is a "COST". Take a look at skydiving centers...young
person walks in and is greeted and treated as equal...and then they
train you how to throw yourself out of an airplane and you have
fun...or you get a skateboard or surfboard....and when it comes to the
end of the day, they seat down, open a bottle of wine, whiskey, beer,
they play loud music, etc....some people in our sport were "annoyed"
because I was too noisy...I speak loud, I like to listen to a loud
music, I like to drink wine and whiskey and eat whatever I want to and
the dinosaurs are saying to me "you are obnoxious" because they like to
whip their 100+ ships, fly around for a while, land and seat and talk
about old times very quietly, they have no sense of humor....what is
there that will attract more young potential pilots? Nothing,
absolutely nothing. The only thing is I don't care about what people
are thinking about me...I have my own ships, I can travel and I am not
old yet...but when I grow old (it can happen at any age) someone will
have to kick my rear end to bring me back to my youthful setting....
When it comes to a tow I agree that besides tow planes winches would be
an excellent addition to our training...I designed one....someone wants
to built one...I can do it....

Jacek
Washington State

"Shawn" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I
recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with
landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was
and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a
new ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass
gliders are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than
they attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a
winch and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids
rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out
there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from
people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this
is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They
may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find
the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too
expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time,
inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our
sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the
price, it's marketing.


Shawn

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels