Airbus 380

Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek



They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State

"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek



They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
the price, it's marketing.


Shawn

as i bury myself in the flak shelter.........
We are often reminded of the hardships endured by our forefathers in the gliding community to get us to where we now are. Wooden ships, breezy clubrooms if any, dodgy tugs, doped fabric.
C'mon you old codgers, with all due respect, this sport is DYING. What has been done is WHY it is dying. This train of thought is killing us!
To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place!
There will always be a place for your beloved antiques, but please, dont force them on the youth or learners of today because you had to endure that yourself.
Get your students into that fast, slippery Carbon/kevlar/unobtainuim ship as soon as possible, and keep the passion alive or we will all be dreaming about gliding instead of doing it.

Do you notice the interest in F1 car racing? Do you think those punters standing around at car races dream of driving the race car, or the Model T Ford at uncle Bobs farm?
Do you look bored at the Hornets in an airshow or look awestruck at the balloons?

Its all about passion, DONT KILL IT!

The real expense in gliding comes from suits in insurance companies, expensive launches, fees for landing, fees for governments to restrict us, blah blah blah, not the actual cost of the machine!
Gliders have never been more affordable or accessable than they are right now, although the top ships are damned expensive, the top anything is damned expensive.

What we have done has led us to where we are. Its not a good place. It may see your days out but not my kids days, nor theirs and I am ripping the sport off if I dont put back in what I have got out of it. Is that your own position, you should ask?

We need change and the attitude that newbies should lump around the field in POS is a perfect place to start. Try this-

"gone solo young feller? Great!"
" Lets get the (insert hottest club ship) out next Sunday and I will DI it and set you up, you will be fine, its a great fast, sleek glider"

Note NOT great first glider, or trainer/learner/stable/forgiving/safe glider, -push the damn thing for heavans sake! KEEP THE PASSION

Get to the field and get them in it. Dont suffer them with the gadgets, its still about stick and rudder, get them to it ASAP and watch them roll up with their mates next month.

Once we have the newbie hooked, he/she WILL continue in a ship of their own, probably lower down the scale and more within the budget we are all constrained with.
BUT they will be one of us now, instead of looking elsewhere for a sport which will interest them.

SO what occurs?
Newbie is hooked, buys second hand glider.
Old hand sells secondhand glider to newbie, buys new glider for himself.
Sales for glider manufactureres go up, technology and skill go up, processes get simpler and cheaper by volume, gliders get cheaper!
What a shock!
Dont believe me?

How much is a new Ferrari, Maserati, Viper or Corvette? The things are everywhere, often driven by young folks wealthier than I. Good on them, why dont they fly?
Ask yourself, should they drive an old volkswagon just because they are new at driving?
Would they be passionate about driving in the old volkswagon? Dont bother with the safety bull**** argument, the two are different and shouldnt be used as an excuse.

CHANGE IT ALL NOW, start in your own head.
Or we all go down, make no mistake.

Bagmaker,
looking forward to the gin being spluttered through large droopy moustaches at him next weekend at the club.

bagmaker wrote:
"gone solo young feller? Great!"
" Lets get the (insert hottest club ship) out next Sunday and I will DI
it and set you up, you will be fine, its a great fast, sleek glider"
Note NOT great first glider, or trainer/learner/stable/forgiving/safe
glider, -push the damn thing for heavans sake!

It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
means higher annual/launch fees.

Bartek

wrote:

It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
means higher annual/launch fees.

Bartek

OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
to maintain than many older gliders.

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
seater made from glass?

If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
and elsewhere all the time.

Robert Mudd
Moriarty, New Mexico USA

Damn right Robert!

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
means higher annual/launch fees.

Bartek

OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
to maintain than many older gliders.

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
seater made from glass?

If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
and elsewhere all the time.

Robert Mudd
Moriarty, New Mexico USA

wrote:
wrote:

It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
means higher annual/launch fees.

Bartek


OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
to maintain than many older gliders.

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
seater made from glass?

If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
and elsewhere all the time.

Robert Mudd
Moriarty, New Mexico USA

'Nother reason to retire the things - Much as I enjoy vintage gliders, every
time I spend a weekend instructing in our wooden wonders (the 'new' one is 40
years old...) I need a while to get used to the glass again when I get back
into a very modest performance glass single seater.

Very little motivation to extend the capabilities if what you are flying manages
1:25 on a good day and has the penetration of a well thrown powderpuff.

As Robert says there are loads of well behaved glass trainers at reasonable
prices.

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those.

As soon as I find someone to sponsor my flying. Whether we like it or
not, K-21 is three or four times more expensive than K-13. Yep, I went
solo in a K-13. Yep, I could have choosen a club that used K-21 for
training. Going solo would have cost me approximately twice as much.

Your club instructors should regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be
able to pass on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
seater made from glass?

I have no doubts about their skills. Most of them actually own glass
gliders.

If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
and elsewhere all the time.

I suppose so.

Bartek (who will gladly fly anything with wood, metal or glass wings)

wrote:

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those.

I have 5000 hours in glass gliders, and I still think they're "hot". I
loved landing my Ka-6e or our club's Blanik, because they had great
speed control (speed limiting brakes) and seemed to land at a walking
pace. What a comfort during an off-field landing. Next best was my ASW
20 with 40 degree landing flaps - landed faster, of course, but nothing
like my Std Cirrus or the motorglider I fly now.

I know there are people that don't go cross country because their glass
ship lands fast, and this disturbs them enough they don't have the
confidence to risk an off-airport landing. I haven't kept track of what
these people learned in, so I can't say starting in a faster glider
would have made the difference.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org