Airbus 380

Unfortunately, I don't have enough flight experience yet to qualify to fly
the Junior under the MSC rules.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:sR55h.231090$FQ1.110494@attbi_s71...
Hi Mike,

At some point in your soaring career, I hope you do some cross-country in
the DG-1000 with Dick or Fred. It is very fun!!!

There is a lot to be said for generous owners of hot 2-seaters that let
the rest of us fly cross-country fly with them. They do a lot to
encourage soaring and cross-country in my opinion.

Not that there is anything wrong with doing cross-country in the Ka-8. It
seems like a very nice glider. But why don't you use the club's Junior?
It it extremely nice to fly and has much better performance than the Ka-8.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
nk.net...
My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

Mike Schumann

"Mark Lenox" wrote in message
. ..
They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10
years, but I never forgot....

I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't
care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better
yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are
great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start
out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your
last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same
way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something
cool, it means much more.

When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon,
her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.


Mark Lenox, CFIG
Chilhowee Gliderport


On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were
enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their
eyes when the cost became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels

"Jeremy Zawodny" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch
of jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over
the fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.

The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The
2-32 POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum
approach speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32
enough to fly the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to
let the approach speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands
that fast.

Wow, those numbers strike me as fast. I did my primary training in 2-32s
and typically flew the pattern around 70mph and had sufficient float on
landing.

I can't imagine why anyone would regularly do a 90mph pattern.

I did do 100mph on final once, but that was part of a checkout before I
could do commercial rides in the 2-32. Those velocity limiting dive
brakes are pretty impressive. :-)

Jeremy

The concern isn't about float, it's about the 2-32's behavior in a gust
induced stall.

Bill Daniels

Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.

PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
be afraid to dream a bit.

Frank Whiteley

Mike Schumann wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't have enough flight experience yet to qualify to fly
the Junior under the MSC rules.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:sR55h.231090$FQ1.110494@attbi_s71...
Hi Mike,

At some point in your soaring career, I hope you do some cross-country in
the DG-1000 with Dick or Fred. It is very fun!!!

There is a lot to be said for generous owners of hot 2-seaters that let
the rest of us fly cross-country fly with them. They do a lot to
encourage soaring and cross-country in my opinion.

Not that there is anything wrong with doing cross-country in the Ka-8. It
seems like a very nice glider. But why don't you use the club's Junior?
It it extremely nice to fly and has much better performance than the Ka-8.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
nk.net...
My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

Mike Schumann

"Mark Lenox" wrote in message
. ..
They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10
years, but I never forgot....

I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't
care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better
yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are
great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start
out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your
last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same
way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something
cool, it means much more.

When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon,
her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.


Mark Lenox, CFIG
Chilhowee Gliderport


On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were
enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their
eyes when the cost became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels

90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
have had one spin in.

Frank Whiteley

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch of
jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over the
fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.

The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The 2-32
POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum approach
speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32 enough to fly
the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to let the approach
speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands that fast.

Wow, those numbers strike me as fast. I did my primary training in
2-32s and typically flew the pattern around 70mph and had sufficient
float on landing.

I can't imagine why anyone would regularly do a 90mph pattern.

I did do 100mph on final once, but that was part of a checkout before I
could do commercial rides in the 2-32. Those velocity limiting dive
brakes are pretty impressive. :-)

Jeremy

Frank Whiteley wrote:
90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
have had one spin in.

What is the stall speed?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
have had one spin in.

What is the stall speed?

I don't have my copy of a 2-32 manual handy right now, but a quick
search reveals 47mph @ max gross:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...26e884e191c7de

That feels like it's in the right ballpark for the 2-32s I've flown.

Jeremy

"Jeremy Zawodny" wrote in message
...
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
have had one spin in.

What is the stall speed?

I don't have my copy of a 2-32 manual handy right now, but a quick search
reveals 47mph @ max gross:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...26e884e191c7de

That feels like it's in the right ballpark for the 2-32s I've flown.

Jeremy

47 MPH stall is very optimistic. At gross weight, the stick buffet starts
at about 55 - 60 and the stall break is around 53. If the stall is not
perfectly symmetric, a spin departure is likely leading to significant
altitude loss. The 2-32 is not a glider you want to stall in the pattern.
There were pilots who thought 70 MPH was an adequate pattern speed who are
no longer with us.

My original point was that, as Robert Mud wrote, modern glass gliders are
very docile and that references to "hot" glass ships is misguided. In
reality, bad gliders are bad at everything and good gliders have excellent
performance AND docile handling qualities. I'd like to see everyone trained
in Duo Discii.

At one point there was a glider manufacturer who couldn't build high
performance gliders. In an attempt to maintain market share, that
manufacturer took a marketing approach that suggested that performance and
safe handling qualities were inversely related such that it was impossible
to build high performance gliders with safe handling. Instead, that
manufacturer proved that it was possible to build bad handling and lousy
performance in the same glider.

Bill Daniels

Mike Schumann wrote:
Just because you are in an old glider doesn't mean that you can't fly cross
country. One of our club member, Jim Hard, just finished his goal of flying
40K KM in his 1-26 this summer.

The fun of soaring is the challenge. The type of equipment you fly just
changes the challenge. It doesn't necessarily increase or reduce it.

Mike Schumann


Amen Mike!!

Bill Daniels wrote:

At one point there was a glider manufacturer who couldn't build high
performance gliders. In an attempt to maintain market share, that
manufacturer took a marketing approach that suggested that performance and
safe handling qualities were inversely related such that it was impossible
to build high performance gliders with safe handling. Instead, that
manufacturer proved that it was possible to build bad handling and lousy
performance in the same glider.

Is that how the 1-36 got built?


Shawn

Another one that drank the coolaid.
"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.

PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
be afraid to dream a bit.

Frank Whiteley

Mike Schumann wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't have enough flight experience yet to qualify to
fly
the Junior under the MSC rules.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:sR55h.231090$FQ1.110494@attbi_s71...
Hi Mike,

At some point in your soaring career, I hope you do some cross-country
in
the DG-1000 with Dick or Fred. It is very fun!!!

There is a lot to be said for generous owners of hot 2-seaters that let
the rest of us fly cross-country fly with them. They do a lot to
encourage soaring and cross-country in my opinion.

Not that there is anything wrong with doing cross-country in the Ka-8.
It
seems like a very nice glider. But why don't you use the club's
Junior?
It it extremely nice to fly and has much better performance than the
Ka-8.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
nk.net...
My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

Mike Schumann

"Mark Lenox" wrote in message
. ..
They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10
years, but I never forgot....

I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't
care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better
yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are
great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't
start
out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet
your
last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same
way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly
something
cool, it means much more.

When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming
soon,
her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.


Mark Lenox, CFIG
Chilhowee Gliderport


On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were
enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their
eyes when the cost became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels