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#1
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Roy Smith writes:
That's an odd way to say it. Consider VFR minimums in overlapping Class D & B airspace (a pretty common occurance for satellite towered airports under the shelf of a Class B). The Class D rules say "1000 feet above, 500 feet below, 2000 feet laterally" for cloud clearance. The Class B rules say "clear of clouds". The D rule is more restrictive, but the B rule is what's in effect. Zero clouds is less restrictive than clouds a few thousand feet away? -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#2
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![]() Mxsmanic wrote: Roy Smith writes: That's an odd way to say it. Consider VFR minimums in overlapping Class D & B airspace (a pretty common occurance for satellite towered airports under the shelf of a Class B). The Class D rules say "1000 feet above, 500 feet below, 2000 feet laterally" for cloud clearance. The Class B rules say "clear of clouds". The D rule is more restrictive, but the B rule is what's in effect. Zero clouds is less restrictive than clouds a few thousand feet away? Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay hundreds of feet away. Kev |
#3
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Kev writes:
Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay hundreds of feet away. Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds," rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds." -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#4
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![]() "Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Kev writes: Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay hundreds of feet away. Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds," rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds." -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Class B is more "restrictive" in the sense that you need an ATC clearance before entering... Class D all you need to do is establish two way communication. |
#5
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"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote in message
... "Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Kev writes: Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay hundreds of feet away. Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds," rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds." -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Class B is more "restrictive" in the sense that you need an ATC clearance before entering... Class D all you need to do is establish two way communication. And when I say "establish two way communication" I mean you call them up and if they acknowledge you in any way other than telling you to "stay out", you are allowed to enter the Class D. i.e. if I call "Renton Tower, Cessna 1538V, Downtown Bellevue with Echo to land", and they reply with "Cessna 1538V, standby", that is considered establishment of two way communication and I am allowed to enter the Class D. If they don't respond, then I must stay clear of the Class D. In your simulator you will never run into this. One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with Sierra, to land", and I got no response, so I started a left 360... then the radio chatter picked up for the emergency and others inbound, and between about 1/4 the way through the 360, the controller basically told everyone, "I have an emergency in progress, I will get to as soon as I can...", just past 1/2 way through the 360 the emergency was over and the controller had gotten back to everyone but me and asked "is there anyone I need to talk to that I haven't yet", suspecting he missed someone, and it was me, but figured I would wait until I was pointed roughly in the right direction before calling him again. Got pointed east, and gave him a call, and he thanked me for my paitence. I had to do the 360 to stay out of the Class D, as I had not yet established two way communication. |
#6
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Wade Hasbrouck writes:
And when I say "establish two way communication" I mean you call them up and if they acknowledge you in any way other than telling you to "stay out", you are allowed to enter the Class D. i.e. if I call "Renton Tower, Cessna 1538V, Downtown Bellevue with Echo to land", and they reply with "Cessna 1538V, standby", that is considered establishment of two way communication and I am allowed to enter the Class D. If they don't respond, then I must stay clear of the Class D. In your simulator you will never run into this. Actually I will, with VATSIM, as there are real people handling ATC and traffic then. One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with Sierra, to land", and I got no response, so I started a left 360... then the radio chatter picked up for the emergency and others inbound, and between about 1/4 the way through the 360, the controller basically told everyone, "I have an emergency in progress, I will get to as soon as I can...", just past 1/2 way through the 360 the emergency was over and the controller had gotten back to everyone but me and asked "is there anyone I need to talk to that I haven't yet", suspecting he missed someone, and it was me, but figured I would wait until I was pointed roughly in the right direction before calling him again. Got pointed east, and gave him a call, and he thanked me for my paitence. I had to do the 360 to stay out of the Class D, as I had not yet established two way communication. I try to be cooperative with ATC. I even feel guilty asking for flight following. Of course, VATSIM controllers are much thinner on the ground than the real thing, so the workload is sometimes much higher. There may be one person effectively working all Class B and Class C towers, plus Approach and Departure, plus Center, plus Ground and Clearance Delivery. If there are only a few planes in the area, no problem, but when traffic picks up to real-world levels, it becomes impossible. The usual situation is practically empty skies and no ATC, though. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#7
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Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight following at this time." Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it. Visit our website for more aviation information, jobs, forums and good advice about basic VFR skills. |
#8
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"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote:
One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with Sierra, to land", You might want to re-read what the AIM has to say about this: 6-3-1. Distress and Urgency Communications [...] d. Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. If you know the controller is working an emergency on the frequency, just shut up, stay out of the way, and let the guy do his job. By keying the mike, you could be stepping on a critical radio call. Even if the frequency appears quiet, the controller is probably busy on the landline coordinating with other ATC facilities, airport emergency response teams, etc. |
#9
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Communications with a troll are found to enable their behavior.
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