Class D / Class C precedence

Kev writes:

Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a
cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay
hundreds of feet away.

Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds,"
rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds."

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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Kev writes:

Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a
cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay
hundreds of feet away.

Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds,"
rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds."

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Class B is more "restrictive" in the sense that you need an ATC clearance
before entering... Class D all you need to do is establish two way
communication.

"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote in message
...

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Kev writes:

Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a
cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay
hundreds of feet away.

Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds,"
rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds."

--
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Class B is more "restrictive" in the sense that you need an ATC clearance
before entering... Class D all you need to do is establish two way
communication.

And when I say "establish two way communication" I mean you call them up and
if they acknowledge you in any way other than telling you to "stay out", you
are allowed to enter the Class D. i.e. if I call "Renton Tower, Cessna
1538V, Downtown Bellevue with Echo to land", and they reply with "Cessna
1538V, standby", that is considered establishment of two way communication
and I am allowed to enter the Class D. If they don't respond, then I must
stay clear of the Class D.

In your simulator you will never run into this.

One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on
the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an
emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing
Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter
the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with
Sierra, to land", and I got no response, so I started a left 360... then
the radio chatter picked up for the emergency and others inbound, and
between about 1/4 the way through the 360, the controller basically told
everyone, "I have an emergency in progress, I will get to as soon as I
can...", just past 1/2 way through the 360 the emergency was over and the
controller had gotten back to everyone but me and asked "is there anyone I
need to talk to that I haven't yet", suspecting he missed someone, and it
was me, but figured I would wait until I was pointed roughly in the right
direction before calling him again. Got pointed east, and gave him a call,
and he thanked me for my paitence. I had to do the 360 to stay out of the
Class D, as I had not yet established two way communication.

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

And when I say "establish two way communication" I mean you call them up and
if they acknowledge you in any way other than telling you to "stay out", you
are allowed to enter the Class D. i.e. if I call "Renton Tower, Cessna
1538V, Downtown Bellevue with Echo to land", and they reply with "Cessna
1538V, standby", that is considered establishment of two way communication
and I am allowed to enter the Class D. If they don't respond, then I must
stay clear of the Class D.

In your simulator you will never run into this.

Actually I will, with VATSIM, as there are real people handling ATC
and traffic then.

One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on
the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an
emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing
Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter
the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with
Sierra, to land", and I got no response, so I started a left 360... then
the radio chatter picked up for the emergency and others inbound, and
between about 1/4 the way through the 360, the controller basically told
everyone, "I have an emergency in progress, I will get to as soon as I
can...", just past 1/2 way through the 360 the emergency was over and the
controller had gotten back to everyone but me and asked "is there anyone I
need to talk to that I haven't yet", suspecting he missed someone, and it
was me, but figured I would wait until I was pointed roughly in the right
direction before calling him again. Got pointed east, and gave him a call,
and he thanked me for my paitence. I had to do the 360 to stay out of the
Class D, as I had not yet established two way communication.

I try to be cooperative with ATC. I even feel guilty asking for
flight following. Of course, VATSIM controllers are much thinner on
the ground than the real thing, so the workload is sometimes much
higher. There may be one person effectively working all Class B and
Class C towers, plus Approach and Departure, plus Center, plus Ground
and Clearance Delivery. If there are only a few planes in the area,
no problem, but when traffic picks up to real-world levels, it becomes
impossible. The usual situation is practically empty skies and no
ATC, though.

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Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
following at this time."

Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.

Visit our website for more aviation information, jobs, forums and good
advice about basic VFR skills.

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.aviation.student.]
On 2006-11-28, PilotWeb.org wrote:
Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
following at this time."

Generally (but not always), if you listen on frequency for a few minutes
before transmitting, you'll be able to tell whether they'll be able to
give you flight following service.

One reason for flying under instrument rules in good weather is that
it effectively becomes guaranteed flight following. You still have
to look out the window, but it helps.

Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.

Definitely. But if you need to travel through someone's (D/C/B)
airspace do have a backup plan in case they don't let you in.

Regular use of flight following also sharpens the radio skills
required for IFR.


Morris

PilotWeb.org writes:

Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
following at this time."

Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.

Point taken, but I know that ATC's first priority is to keep IFR
flights safe, and in busy airspace I'd not want to take any risk of
distracting them from that job. If it's quiet I might ask for flight
following, or if I felt that I were in a risky situation myself (lots
of traffic nearby).

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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
news
PilotWeb.org writes:

Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
following at this time."

Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.

Point taken, but I know that ATC's first priority is to keep IFR
flights safe, and in busy airspace I'd not want to take any risk of
distracting them from that job. If it's quiet I might ask for flight
following, or if I felt that I were in a risky situation myself (lots
of traffic nearby).


You are contradicting yourself Anthony. First you say you don't want to risk
distracting in busy airspace then you turn around that you'd use flight
following with lots of traffic nearby.

ATC is capable of deciding whether or not they are too busy to provide
flight following the pilot need not worry about distracting them with the
request or the service.

"PilotWeb.org" wrote in
oups.com:

Visit our website for more aviation information, jobs, forums and good
advice about basic VFR skills.

Pilotweb,

Not sure if you realize it or not, but you are dealing with a person
(Mxmaniac) who plays games on MSFS and does not fly a real plane.

Unfortunately, the value of your website would be wasted on the individual
you are dealing with since he has been trolling these aviation newsgroups
for sometime. Check out his posting history and you will clearly see what
I am talking about (especially his responses to real world situations).

You may want to respond to those who would be more appreciative of the time
you spend in your replies.

Allen

"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
"PilotWeb.org" wrote in
oups.com:

Visit our website for more aviation information, jobs, forums and good
advice about basic VFR skills.

Pilotweb,

Not sure if you realize it or not, but you are dealing with a person
(Mxmaniac) who plays games on MSFS and does not fly a real plane.

Unfortunately, the value of your website would be wasted on the individual
you are dealing with since he has been trolling these aviation newsgroups
for sometime. Check out his posting history and you will clearly see what
I am talking about (especially his responses to real world situations).

You may want to respond to those who would be more appreciative of the
time
you spend in your replies.

Allen

Allen
Agreed - however his comment is of interest to the group as it raises the
hoary old chestnut that the role of ATC is to protect IFR.

Certainly that is the way it occurs here in Oz but the reality is that
airspace is a national asset and the role of ATC is to manage safety for all
in that public asset.

It is well summed up in the ICAO principle of first come first served except
where defence or system operational efficiency overrides. Of course, this
is read as commercial priority overrides particularly where ATC staffing is
constrained to save a dollar - so VFR drops out of the queue.
cheers
Brian