Crosswind landing control..

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 19:54:32 -0800, "BT" wrote:

AL, with the manual flaps, drop the flap handle to the floor..
remember.. those beeches say "do not use maximum braking with full flaps"
I've seen more than one beech skip down the runway flat spotting the tires

Be careful with the term "Beech". A short filed landing with a Bo is,
plant the mains on, let the nose down, get on the brakes and *haul*
back on the yoke. That actually puts pressure on the mains. The
flaps stay at full. For one reason they are slow enough that they
will spend more time in the added lift region right when you don't
want it when coming up. If I hit the up switch when I have it planted
on, I'll be to a stop about the same time the flaps reach full up. BTW
A non transitioning pilot is unlikely to hit the wrong switch.
Switching to a plane with the switches reversed would worry me.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:33:20 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Hi Dudley,

Couple of points:

Applying forward pressure during the rollout is a bad idea. It can cause a
slew (no pun intended :-) of problems. Just concentrate on maintaining
directional control with rudder and let the nosewheel settle in naturally
at touchdown .

The whole Beech family is very good at imitating wheel barrows. :-))
If they aint ready to land they'll end up running down the runway on
the nose gear. The same thing is true of taking off. If it's ready to
fly you can't hold it on without imitating a wheelbarrow unless
everything including trim is neutral. They can be a real bear tying to
do touch and goes.

If needed, you should be holding some aileron in for wind correction during
this process. Retracting the flaps and holding in some back pressure will
help firm your mains.

With his mechanical flaps that works very well. With my electric flaps
it doesn't. I end up reducing drag and increasing lift which will
actually increase my roll out a bit. (I can be stopped by the time
they are full up)

I'm a great believer of not using forward pressure during touchdown and
rollout on landings in trikes. Shouldn't be necessary and it's dangerous.
Hold back pressure on the rollout. That will increase the pressure on the
mains and desensitize the nose wheel. On most trikes its important that the

Nose wheels are expensive and for steering during taxi. Mains are
strong for landing.

nose wheel be straight at touchdown. Correct for drift with aileron and
maintain directional control with opposite rudder. The magnitude of the
pressure required to do this properly will also vary during the approach.
Just keep the speed a bit higher than normal for the crosswind and fly the
airplane. If you do everything right, the nose wheel will take care of
itself and be positioned correctly at touchdown.
Think of it this way; if your rudder work is good, and your alignment is set
up and executed correctly, and your aileron work is good and compensating
correctly for the drift, the nosewheel should be just fine. :-)
Dudley Henriques
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 3 Dec 2006 19:45:19 -0800, "Andrew Sarangan"
wrote:

There should never be any forward pressure on the yoke/stick during
landing. The yoke is always held back, never pushed forward. Perhaps
you mean reducing the back pressure. In that case, yes, it would be
proper to relax the back pressure somewhat quicker during a crosswind
landing to quickly transfer the weight from the wings to the wheels.
Howvever this technique is not really necessary except in the worst
crosswind (ie when it exceeds rudder authority).

In most Beech singles that rudder has more authority than the nose
gear unless going really slow.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

So, this damage is a result of slamming the nosewheel down, or applying
forward pressure after the wheels are firmly on the ground?

It would seem that forward pressure on the stick would not actually
_push_ the nosewheel down, but simply allow the weight of the engine to
settle onto the nosewheel sooner.. Does pushing actually apply more
downward force on the nosewheel than when the plane is sitting on the
ramp?

I think that getting the flaps up immediately will help my technique
also. (PA28s w/ manual flaps.)

--Dan




Wheel barrowing is a common occurance on landing when a pilot forces the
airplane to land before it is ready.
Common evidence of wheel barrowing in Cessna's is damage to the lower fire
wall, sometimes to the point that day light is seen through the seperation.

BT

"Dan" wrote in message
ups.com...
All,

When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
seems to have helped my control on rollout.

Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
"wheelbarrowing" occur?

--Dan

OK, so by bringing the yoke/stick full aft, aren't you increasing the
angle of attack, generating more lift and _removing_ wieght from the
mains? (Sure, the aerodynamic braking does help).

This was discussed in a thread he
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...bbacd8005c3a8/

but it seems to be something that everyone has an opinion on....

--Dan


A Lieberma wrote:
"Dan" wrote in news:1165200901.919197.150950@
16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:

Under what circumstances would
"wheelbarrowing" occur?

Anytime the plane is rolling too fast, the potential for wheelbarrowing can
happen whether it be landing or take off.

For me, I do the opposite in my Beechsundowner.

After landing, after all three wheels are firmly on terra firma, WHENEVER
POSSIBLE, I hold the yoke full aft until the plane slows down enough that
the stabilator has no effect on keeping the pressure off the nosewheel
(similar to a softfield landing technique).

I want the weight to remain on the mains as long as I can so I can prevent
the chance of nosewheel shimmy as well as wheelbarrowing down the runway.

Allen

My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.

If it can't produce upward force, then the rear of the plane could be
made no lighter than when it is standing still, therefore it could
transfer no _additional_ weight to the nosewheel no matter what the
control inputs. Where is this logic flawed (seriously, I want to
understand if this is wrong...)


--Dan


Crash Lander wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message
ups.com...
So, this damage is a result of slamming the nosewheel down, or applying
forward pressure after the wheels are firmly on the ground?

It would seem that forward pressure on the stick would not actually
_push_ the nosewheel down, but simply allow the weight of the engine to
settle onto the nosewheel sooner.. Does pushing actually apply more
downward force on the nosewheel than when the plane is sitting on the
ramp?

No, it doesn't, but when travelling at speed down the runway, pushing the
stick forward increases the angle of attack of the tail plane, (obviously),
and in effect, transfers more weight to the front of the a/c by making the
rear lighter. (I think I'm explaining this right!)
Oz Lander

"Dan" wrote in message
ups.com...
So, this damage is a result of slamming the nosewheel down, or applying
forward pressure after the wheels are firmly on the ground?

It would seem that forward pressure on the stick would not actually
_push_ the nosewheel down, but simply allow the weight of the engine to
settle onto the nosewheel sooner.. Does pushing actually apply more
downward force on the nosewheel than when the plane is sitting on the
ramp?

No, it doesn't, but when travelling at speed down the runway, pushing the
stick forward increases the angle of attack of the tail plane, (obviously),
and in effect, transfers more weight to the front of the a/c by making the
rear lighter. (I think I'm explaining this right!)
Oz Lander

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:33:20 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

With his mechanical flaps that works very well. With my electric flaps
it doesn't. I end up reducing drag and increasing lift which will
actually increase my roll out a bit. (I can be stopped by the time
they are full up)

We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that we used
for charter once in a while.
After touchdown, she was pretty well planted unless you brought it in a bit
fast. Very stable on landing; in fact, I always liked the way the Bo handled
on landings. Solid as a rock!
My procedure with the Bo was to NOT touch the flaps during the rollout until
the airplane had left the runway, then I'd LOOK at the switch, TOUCH the
switch, REPEAT verbally to myself, "Flaps UP!", THEN I'd raise the flaps.
:-))
Dudley

No... this is the point at which there is more gravity acting on the
plane than lift... the wing cannot lift the plane off the gorund.
Putting more pressure on the mains will let you brake quicker.

On Dec 3, 7:34 pm, "Dan" wrote:
OK, so by bringing the yoke/stick full aft, aren't you increasing the
angle of attack, generating more lift and _removing_ wieght from the
mains? (Sure, the aerodynamic braking does help).

This was discussed in a thread hehttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...owse_frm/threa...

but it seems to be something that everyone has an opinion on....

--Dan



A Lieberma wrote:
"Dan" wrote in news:1165200901.919197.150950@
16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:

Under what circumstances would
"wheelbarrowing" occur?

Anytime the plane is rolling too fast, the potential for wheelbarrowing can
happen whether it be landing or take off.

For me, I do the opposite in my Beechsundowner.

After landing, after all three wheels are firmly on terra firma, WHENEVER
POSSIBLE, I hold the yoke full aft until the plane slows down enough that
the stabilator has no effect on keeping the pressure off the nosewheel
(similar to a softfield landing technique).

I want the weight to remain on the mains as long as I can so I can prevent
the chance of nosewheel shimmy as well as wheelbarrowing down the runway.

Allen- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:58:48 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:33:20 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

With his mechanical flaps that works very well. With my electric flaps
it doesn't. I end up reducing drag and increasing lift which will
actually increase my roll out a bit. (I can be stopped by the time
they are full up)

We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that we used
for charter once in a while.

Your's was that new?

After touchdown, she was pretty well planted unless you brought it in a bit
fast.

Even then those big flaps slow them down in a hurry.
What surprises most people is the light wing loading. About the same
as a Cherokee 180 and about 2# lighter than a Mooney although that
figure varies a lot depending on model and year.

Very stable on landing; in fact, I always liked the way the Bo handled
on landings. Solid as a rock!
My procedure with the Bo was to NOT touch the flaps during the rollout until
the airplane had left the runway, then I'd LOOK at the switch, TOUCH the
switch, REPEAT verbally to myself, "Flaps UP!", THEN I'd raise the flaps.

Ah, yes. Look at it, point at it, Identify it, say it, and THEN do it.
OTOH I'm that way on any retract as all of them except the Bo are
backwards. :-))

Actually, once you get used to the interconnected rudder (ruddervators
on V-tails) and ailerons they are one of the easiest planes to land
out there.


:-))
Dudley

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com