MS Flight Sim As a Training Tool

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
Okay, I know this one has been beaten up before -- but my eyes are now
wide open to the possibilities a sim can provide. Here are a few data
points for discussion:

1. IFR Flight
big snip

I've been using our hotel's night manager (a fellow we've taken flying
a couple of times, but who has no flight training experience) as a
guinea pig, and he has really progressed nicely in just a few days of
practice. Not only is he now able to land the sim reliably, but he has
learned an awful lot about basic flight procedures and conditions
during various portions of flight -- without burning a gallon of avgas.


I think you could probably shave several hours off of your Private by
practicing in the Kiwi -- and it will be invaluable to me as an
instrument procedures trainer.

Besides just being a helluva lot of fun, of course!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Well MSFS I'm sure can be fun. And I'm equally sure it can provide a lot of
learning lessons. And, no doubt, help you with IFR procedures. Plus when you
push on this, the airplane does that...

However, I think you would agree that sittting in front of a computer by
yourself (no instructor, no pilot in the other seat to learn from) won't
teach you how to fly.

For example. There is a person who frequents this news group who claims to
have been flying MSFS for "years" and apparently puts a great deal of
thought and effort into it, but looking at this thread alone I find:

"I collapsed the nose gear landing at KCID just last night, after an
ILS approach to runway 27."

"Only a few days earlier, in similarly gusty weather, I lost all the
gear landing in fog at Logan International."

"I've tried engine failures on a number of occasions, although mostly
in the Baron. That and attempts with failures in a single-engine
plane have taught me that engine failures need to be avoided at all
costs. Particularly with just one engine, there's a good chance that
you won't make it, period."
From other threads it is very clear that this person lacks basic pilotage
skills and has to rely on the gauges to navigate. He also doesn't seem to
understand how someone gets disoriented in the air. And, with some effort, I
could probably find other shortcomings with his skills.

Clearly "learn yourself flying" from MSFS isn't working.

NOTE: Let me be VERY clear, I'm not trying to pick on anyone - I am trying
to look at the process, not the person. I'm sure that the effort expended in
trying to learn has been sincere, but the results appear to be spotty at
best.

It seems obvious to me, that one really needs to spend some time in an
airplane with another pilot to get the basics down. Your manager has had the
benefit of watching others as well as having you standing over his shoulder
coaching him, - right? That's a far cry from "trial and error" learning on
your own - that's a tough row to hoe. (Note that no one ever calls it "trial
and succeed".) Jay, would you agree that stepping into an airplane would
still be a chalenge for your manager? And, (again with someone instructing
or coaching) would it give his skills a big boost?

I think this kind of simulator can _augment_ training in an aircraft, but
it doesn't replace it.

Geoff OUT.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...

I've been using our hotel's night manager (a fellow we've taken flying
a couple of times, but who has no flight training experience) as a
guinea pig, and he has really progressed nicely in just a few days of
practice. Not only is he now able to land the sim reliably, but he has
learned an awful lot about basic flight procedures and conditions
during various portions of flight -- without burning a gallon of avgas.

I knew it!! You guys are sticking Mary doing room and tax balancing the
night audit while you two go and play with the new toy!!!
:-))
Dudley

It seems obvious to me, that one really needs to spend some time in an
airplane with another pilot to get the basics down. Your manager has had the
benefit of watching others as well as having you standing over his shoulder
coaching him, - right? That's a far cry from "trial and error" learning on
your own - that's a tough row to hoe. (Note that no one ever calls it "trial
and succeed".) Jay, would you agree that stepping into an airplane would
still be a chalenge for your manager? And, (again with someone instructing
or coaching) would it give his skills a big boost?

Oh, absolutely. You guys seem to think that I'm advocating doing away
with the flight school here in Iowa City -- and that's far from what I
believe. Nothing will replace an instructor and a real airplane.

But, on the other hand, to dismiss the Kiwi as a mere "game" is to
unfairly minimize what we've accomplished here. As an example, last
night (at Movie Night) a young pilot (they DO exist!) showed up, not to
see the movie ("Flying Tigers", BTW) but to fly the Kiwi.

He flew for 20 minutes or so, made some nice approaches into Mackinac
and Madeline Islands, and had a great time. He then pronounced the
Kiwi as superior to the mega-thousand dollar, PC-based flight sim at
the flight school.

Since the time on that machine CAN be logged, what does that say about
the Kiwi?

I think this kind of simulator can _augment_ training in an aircraft, but
it doesn't replace it.

No one (with any brains) ever suggested otherwise.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination

Jay Honeck wrote:
It seems obvious to me, that one really needs to spend some time in an
airplane with another pilot to get the basics down. Your manager has had the
benefit of watching others as well as having you standing over his shoulder
coaching him, - right? That's a far cry from "trial and error" learning on
your own - that's a tough row to hoe. (Note that no one ever calls it "trial
and succeed".) Jay, would you agree that stepping into an airplane would
still be a chalenge for your manager? And, (again with someone instructing
or coaching) would it give his skills a big boost?

Oh, absolutely. You guys seem to think that I'm advocating doing away
with the flight school here in Iowa City -- and that's far from what I
believe. Nothing will replace an instructor and a real airplane.

But, on the other hand, to dismiss the Kiwi as a mere "game" is to
unfairly minimize what we've accomplished here. As an example, last
night (at Movie Night) a young pilot (they DO exist!) showed up, not to
see the movie ("Flying Tigers", BTW) but to fly the Kiwi.

He flew for 20 minutes or so, made some nice approaches into Mackinac
and Madeline Islands, and had a great time. He then pronounced the
Kiwi as superior to the mega-thousand dollar, PC-based flight sim at
the flight school.

Since the time on that machine CAN be logged, what does that say about
the Kiwi?

I think this kind of simulator can _augment_ training in an aircraft, but
it doesn't replace it.

No one (with any brains) ever suggested otherwise.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination

Jay I agree with you in 95% of what you've said throughout this
discussion, there is one person I don't agree with who is a pain and is
now in my killfile (not a literal gung-ho rambo killfile, just a file
on my computer that blocks messages, I want to be clear on that before
the FBI shows up at my building).

I will not agree with you, however, in saying that a sim flight model
can be close to the real thing, it's a great piece of entertainment and
can be faily engaging, but let's be honest, it just doesn't act the
same in MSFS as it would in real life, it can be misleadingly close,
but it's not the same.

I will not agree with you, however, in saying that a sim flight model
can be close to the real thing, it's a great piece of entertainment and
can be faily engaging, but let's be honest, it just doesn't act the
same in MSFS as it would in real life, it can be misleadingly close,
but it's not the same.

Well, I can only offer an invitation to come fly the Kiwi.

If, after pulling up to the gas pumps (really!) at little Sylvania
Field (C89) in Racine County, WI, having just sweated your way through
a cross-wind landing on that 30-foot-wide, 2300-foot-long runway,
(after taking a lakefront-tour of Racine), you *still* think that this
thing isn't as real as it gets (outside of an airplane) -- I'll buy the
beer.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Thats would be a long 3000 mile flight for me, If I'm ever back in the
midwest I'll try to stop by, but right now I'm trying to follow more
southerly pursuits.

Jay Honeck wrote:
I will not agree with you, however, in saying that a sim flight model
can be close to the real thing, it's a great piece of entertainment and
can be faily engaging, but let's be honest, it just doesn't act the
same in MSFS as it would in real life, it can be misleadingly close,
but it's not the same.

Well, I can only offer an invitation to come fly the Kiwi.

If, after pulling up to the gas pumps (really!) at little Sylvania
Field (C89) in Racine County, WI, having just sweated your way through
a cross-wind landing on that 30-foot-wide, 2300-foot-long runway,
(after taking a lakefront-tour of Racine), you *still* think that this
thing isn't as real as it gets (outside of an airplane) -- I'll buy the
beer.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

writes:

I will not agree with you, however, in saying that a sim flight model
can be close to the real thing, it's a great piece of entertainment and
can be faily engaging, but let's be honest, it just doesn't act the
same in MSFS as it would in real life, it can be misleadingly close,
but it's not the same.

List the differences.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

writes:

I will not agree with you, however, in saying that a sim flight model
can be close to the real thing, it's a great piece of entertainment
and can be faily engaging, but let's be honest, it just doesn't act
the same in MSFS as it would in real life, it can be misleadingly
close, but it's not the same.

List the differences.

It's been done. Read the many posts on the topic. Don't waste bandwidth
being repetitive.

Neil

Neil Gould writes:

It's been done. Read the many posts on the topic. Don't waste bandwidth
being repetitive.

Where's the list?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Neil Gould writes:

It's been done. Read the many posts on the topic. Don't waste
bandwidth being repetitive.

Where's the list?

Revert to your "inner researcher" and collate your own from the reponses
you've been given.

Neil