IFR Cancellation Question

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ps.com:

Ummm lost pilot doesn't bode well for traffic?????


No, why does what I describe **almost** sound like an emergency
situation for a lost pilot?

Ummm, situational awareness comes to mind???? A pilot bumbling around a
busy airport and not seeing the airport sure sounds like an emergency
situation developing to me.

Surely you can't see a bumbling pilot poking along through a pattern of
an airport not causing problems or an emergency situation that may
directly affect the safety of flight. Big sky theory will fail.

Note, it may not even be the bumbling pilot, but another pilot that has
to take evasive action due to the lack of situational awareness from the
lost pilot. Yep, a developing emergency.

Be realistic, clear
day, VMC and the pilot doesn't see the airport within a couple of
miles?

Sounds like a problem, not the norm.


No, not if the the pilot doesn't see the field within a couple of
miles, if he doesn't see it until he is within a couple of miles.

obviously you are playing some type of semantic game as I really have no
clue what you are trying to say above.....

My take for what it's worth, if a pilot does not see an airport within a
couple of miles FROM THE AIRPORT, then you have a potential emergency
situation developing. Loss of situational awareness surely can be
considered an emergency. As stated in an earlier post, this is not
normal that I have seen in my short 5 years of flying.

If you are trying to say that the pilot doesn't see an airport from lets
say 15 miles vs 13 miles out from the airport, then yeah, that isn't a
problem.

Allen

A Lieberma wrote:

Ummm, situational awareness comes to mind???? A pilot bumbling around a
busy airport and not seeing the airport sure sounds like an emergency
situation developing to me.


We're not talking about busy airports. Busy airports have Class B or C
airspace. Since we're talking about flight following we're limited to
airports in Class D, E, and G airspace.



Surely you can't see a bumbling pilot poking along through a pattern of
an airport not causing problems or an emergency situation that may
directly affect the safety of flight. Big sky theory will fail.

Note, it may not even be the bumbling pilot, but another pilot that has
to take evasive action due to the lack of situational awareness from the
lost pilot. Yep, a developing emergency.


Sure can. That's why the pilot should be on tower frequency or CTAF
when he gets close to the field, not on flight following.



obviously you are playing some type of semantic game as I really have no
clue what you are trying to say above.....


I'm trying to say a good controller won't advise aircraft on flight
following to report the field in sight.



My take for what it's worth, if a pilot does not see an airport within a
couple of miles FROM THE AIRPORT, then you have a potential emergency
situation developing. Loss of situational awareness surely can be
considered an emergency. As stated in an earlier post, this is not
normal that I have seen in my short 5 years of flying.


Nonsense. Not seeing the airport doesn't mean you're lost, it just
means you haven't sighted the airport yet.



If you are trying to say that the pilot doesn't see an airport from lets
say 15 miles vs 13 miles out from the airport, then yeah, that isn't a
problem.


I'm trying to say there's no reason for a controller to advise aircraft
on flight following to report the field in sight. Such a report has no
purpose. When you get close to the field, say ten miles or so, you
should be talking to the tower or on CTAF, not on flight following.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ups.com:


A Lieberma wrote:

Ummm, situational awareness comes to mind???? A pilot bumbling around
a
busy airport and not seeing the airport sure sounds like an emergency
situation developing to me.


We're not talking about busy airports. Busy airports have Class B or C
airspace. Since we're talking about flight following we're limited to
airports in Class D, E, and G airspace.

Plenty of busy UNcontrolled and D class airports underlay the shelfs of B
and C....

Nonsense. Not seeing the airport doesn't mean you're lost, it just
means you haven't sighted the airport yet.

From my point of view, if you have not sighted the airport from a few
miles out (my definition of a few is 2 to 3 miles), either you are in
conditions that you shouldn't be in (below VFR) or you are situationally
lost. As you know, in a typical C172 speed, that is only 1 to 1 1/2
minutes to the airport, far too short to be properly entering a pattern
(especially if the airport has non standard patterns, such as right
turns).

I'm trying to say there's no reason for a controller to advise aircraft
on flight following to report the field in sight. Such a report has no
purpose. When you get close to the field, say ten miles or so, you
should be talking to the tower or on CTAF, not on flight following.

Now, we are getting somewhere, and yes, I do agree with you.

Unfortunately, when KJAN is busy, releasing me 10 miles out from KMBO in
Charlie airpsace when traffic is using 16L is not exactly a good idea. I
have been held on frequency by approach up to 5 miles to the airport when
approaching KMBO from the east or north east. Coming from the south, you
won't be released by approach until you are passed the final approach
courses for 16R and 16L.

Personally, knowing where my own airport is, I don't have any problems
being released early, but when I go to airports I am not familiar with,
then I'd rather have the controller hold on to me until I get a visual.
Airport advisories such as xxxx 8 miles 12 o'clock are always appreciated
even though I already may have this info on my GPS.

So, while you may not see the reason for a controller to ask a VFR
traffic to report airport in sight, doesn't mean it's a useless request.

Plus, it may be a confort factor to the controller knowing the pilot does
have the airport in sight before turning him over to CTAF (or tower).

Allen

A Lieberma wrote:

Plenty of busy UNcontrolled and D class airports underlay the shelfs of B
and C....


Can you name some of them?



From my point of view, if you have not sighted the airport from a few
miles out (my definition of a few is 2 to 3 miles), either you are in
conditions that you shouldn't be in (below VFR) or you are situationally
lost. As you know, in a typical C172 speed, that is only 1 to 1 1/2
minutes to the airport, far too short to be properly entering a pattern
(especially if the airport has non standard patterns, such as right
turns).


Sounds like your point of view is based on rather limited experience,
but let's get back on point. If you're two or three miles from the
airport should you be on flight following or should you be on CTAF or
tower frequency?



Now, we are getting somewhere, and yes, I do agree with you.


Finally.



Unfortunately, when KJAN is busy, releasing me 10 miles out from KMBO in
Charlie airpsace when traffic is using 16L is not exactly a good idea. I
have been held on frequency by approach up to 5 miles to the airport when
approaching KMBO from the east or north east. Coming from the south, you
won't be released by approach until you are passed the final approach
courses for 16R and 16L.


If you're in Charlie airspace you're not on flight following, you're
receiving Class C services. Even so, controllers are required to
terminate Class C services to aircraft landing at secondary airports at
a point that will allow them to obtain airport and traffic information.


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...708.html#7-8-8



Personally, knowing where my own airport is, I don't have any problems
being released early, but when I go to airports I am not familiar with,
then I'd rather have the controller hold on to me until I get a visual.
Airport advisories such as xxxx 8 miles 12 o'clock are always appreciated
even though I already may have this info on my GPS.


Is that because you lack confidence in your GPS?



So, while you may not see the reason for a controller to ask a VFR
traffic to report airport in sight, doesn't mean it's a useless request.


No, but if there was a reason for a controller to ask a VFR aircraft on
flight following to report the field in sight I would see it. It's a
useless request because it has no useful purpose.



Plus, it may be a confort factor to the controller knowing the pilot does
have the airport in sight before turning him over to CTAF (or tower).


How might that affect the controller's comfort?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
A Lieberma wrote:
Plenty of busy UNcontrolled and D class airports underlay the shelfs of B
and C....


Can you name some of them?


I can spot a few on the top 50 towers list put out by the FAA.
All are class D outside, but under the floor of class C/B airspace.

VNY is the busiest GA airport in the country. It's far busier by
any measure than BUR whose class C it underlies.

APA is the 25th busiest airport in the country and is under DEN's
shelf.

DVT is the 27th (under PHX).

LGB at #30 is under LAX.

Ron Natalie wrote:



I can spot a few on the top 50 towers list put out by the FAA.
All are class D outside, but under the floor of class C/B airspace.

VNY is the busiest GA airport in the country. It's far busier by
any measure than BUR whose class C it underlies.

Well not by any measure. It has zero scheduled air service.

Ron Natalie wrote:

I can spot a few on the top 50 towers list put out by the FAA.
All are class D outside, but under the floor of class C/B airspace.

VNY is the busiest GA airport in the country. It's far busier by
any measure than BUR whose class C it underlies.

APA is the 25th busiest airport in the country and is under DEN's
shelf.

DVT is the 27th (under PHX).

LGB at #30 is under LAX.


What would you do as you approached them while on flight following,
assuming you do not yet have the field in sight and the controller
instructed you to report the field?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

DVT is the 27th (under PHX).

What would you do as you approached them while on flight following,
assuming you do not yet have the field in sight and the controller
instructed you to report the field?

Well since this is my home base, I would terminate flight following and request a frequency change when
about 10 miles from the airport, so I could give the tower a call. That is, if approach hadn't dropped me
before that.

Mike

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
A Lieberma wrote:
Plenty of busy UNcontrolled and D class airports underlay the shelfs of B
and C....
Can you name some of them?

Underneath the New York Class B airspace: TEB (Teterboro), MMU
(Morristown), CDW (Caldwell), HPN (Westchester), and FRG (Farmingdale) -
all pretty busy Class D airports.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

Alan Gerber writes:

Underneath the New York Class B airspace: TEB (Teterboro), MMU
(Morristown), CDW (Caldwell), HPN (Westchester), and FRG (Farmingdale) -
all pretty busy Class D airports.

Underneath KPHX, Deer Valley, Scottsdale, Williams Gateway, Falcon
Field, Chandler. Scottsdale is very popular for GA, Williams handles
a lot of the overload from KPHX and is thus very busy for a Class D.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.