old days

John Doe wrote:


Please do ramble... I have been reading the posts on this group for some
time and find it interesting at times. Unfortunately I haven't read the
posts in "the old times" and you could say I'm a frequent lurker
I'm currently working as a military instructor too.. but I suppose I haven't
got the hours or the experience like the guys in the USA.
Anyway, to start off a discussion - have been doing the what ifs and there
are several opinions on the particular emergency that I need to solve.
Engine failure during transition to forward flight. Specificaly after the
transverse flow effect (say doing 40 knots, around 50 feet AGL). What to do
with the collective? Do you slam it down to maintain as much RPM as you can
and then quickly pull it up to cushion the landing or is there not enough
time to lower the collective fully? Maybe a newbie question but as you
probably know once you ask the question a dozen theories pop up. Thanks...



I had the fortune of flying helicopters during Vietnam. Back in the days
where pilots passed along their experiences and how to survive getting
the helicopter shot out from under them. I did not fly in Vietnam. My
orders were to report in Feb 1973. In January they ended the war (so to
speak) and my orders were canceled.

But before I knew my orders were going to be canceled I flew with all
Vets and soaked up everything they would teach me. One maneuver many of
them had experience with was an engine failure at 50 ft AGL at a hover
and moving forward. Both situations required the same response in the
UH-1. The collective was slammed down and without a pause, was raised
quickly to cushion the landing. It was almost a continuous movement,
down and then back up. These were pilots teaching me, not IPs. By the
time I started instructing in 1978 the world of Army Aviation had
changed. Even as an IP I could not teach, or even demonstrate, some of
the maneuvers that combat veterans had learned the hard way.

Some of the other maneuvers I was taught turned out to be a bit on the
extreme side of the coin. An OH58 hovering at 500 feet AGL, engine
failure, lower the collective and apply aft cyclic until backing up a
few knots, then lower the nose to get at least 40 knots and apply
collective to cushion landing directly under the point of the engine
failure. As I remember the minimum rate of descent in an OH58 is 43
knots. I remember at that airspeed there was no deceleration, only a
quick and continuous application of collective to keep the skids from
wrapping around the fuselage.

I was not required to remember how to react to those situations in
Desert Storm. I flew OH58D's and as far as I could tell I was never seen
or shot at.

--

boB
copter.six

"boB" wrote in message
...

I had the fortune of flying helicopters during Vietnam. Back in the days
where pilots passed along their experiences and how to survive getting the
helicopter shot out from under them. I did not fly in Vietnam. My orders
were to report in Feb 1973. In January they ended the war (so to speak)
and my orders were canceled.

But before I knew my orders were going to be canceled I flew with all Vets
and soaked up everything they would teach me. One maneuver many of them
had experience with was an engine failure at 50 ft AGL at a hover and
moving forward. Both situations required the same response in the UH-1.
The collective was slammed down and without a pause, was raised quickly to
cushion the landing. It was almost a continuous movement, down and then
back up. These were pilots teaching me, not IPs. By the time I started
instructing in 1978 the world of Army Aviation had changed. Even as an IP
I could not teach, or even demonstrate, some of the maneuvers that combat
veterans had learned the hard way.

Some of the other maneuvers I was taught turned out to be a bit on the
extreme side of the coin. An OH58 hovering at 500 feet AGL, engine
failure, lower the collective and apply aft cyclic until backing up a few
knots, then lower the nose to get at least 40 knots and apply collective
to cushion landing directly under the point of the engine failure. As I
remember the minimum rate of descent in an OH58 is 43 knots. I remember at
that airspeed there was no deceleration, only a quick and continuous
application of collective to keep the skids from wrapping around the
fuselage.

I was not required to remember how to react to those situations in Desert
Storm. I flew OH58D's and as far as I could tell I was never seen or shot
at.

--

boB
copter.six


Thanks a lot boB... It means a world of difference having someone with real
life (or even better - combat) experience giving their opinion... Sadly I
have never done anything but power recovery autos and I'm currently passing
through 550 hours (Bell206B) - so any answer I give to my students is purely
theoretical. And sometimes it's hard to be convincing Not to mention the
discussions that go on once the subject is open between my coworkers
If you or anyone else has any info on theese "nonstandard" procedures I'd be
happy to hear them out...

John Doe wrote:



Thanks a lot boB... It means a world of difference having someone with real
life (or even better - combat) experience giving their opinion... Sadly I
have never done anything but power recovery autos and I'm currently passing
through 550 hours (Bell206B) - so any answer I give to my students is purely
theoretical. And sometimes it's hard to be convincing Not to mention the
discussions that go on once the subject is open between my coworkers
If you or anyone else has any info on theese "nonstandard" procedures I'd be
happy to hear them out...



I agree, power recovery autos suck but if that's all that's allowed you
can still try to give the student some different situations so when the
engine actually quits they have a lot of practice completing the
immediate procedures and once in a controlled descent they will walk
away from the resulting landing.

Please take what I say with a grain of salt. I can only talk about what
my experiences were and I don't want to convey that what I did was the
cut and dried solution. I have no idea what an R22 would do with an
engine failure at 50 feet. In 25 years the only actual engine failure I
had was in an OH-13 (Bell 46). Luckily I was a student in flight school
flying instrument procedures. That was back in the days of the scruffy
old IP's. As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft kind of jerked
a little bit left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The
aircraft jerked again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was
yelling, the aircraft got strangely quiet. My reaction was to go
through the emergency procedure for engine failure IMC. I barely got the
collective down before the IP, all assholes and elbows, grabbed the
controls and we set down nicely in a peanut field there in Alabama. So
my only engine failure in 25 years consisted of me watching my IP
complete a "full stop" autorotation. But I never forgot what it sounded
like when the engine decided to quit.




--

boB
copter.six

"boB" wrote in message
...

Please take what I say with a grain of salt. I can only talk about what my
experiences were and I don't want to convey that what I did was the cut
and dried solution. I have no idea what an R22 would do with an engine
failure at 50 feet. In 25 years the only actual engine failure I had was
in an OH-13 (Bell 46). Luckily I was a student in flight school flying
instrument procedures. That was back in the days of the scruffy old IP's.
As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft kind of jerked a little bit
left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The aircraft jerked
again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was yelling, the
aircraft got strangely quiet. My reaction was to go through the emergency
procedure for engine failure IMC. I barely got the collective down before
the IP, all assholes and elbows, grabbed the controls and we set down
nicely in a peanut field there in Alabama. So my only engine failure in
25 years consisted of me watching my IP complete a "full stop"
autorotation. But I never forgot what it sounded like when the engine
decided to quit.


boB
copter.six

Cool story boB. Definitely a time when silence is "not" golden! I'd love
to see the look on the IP's face! ;-)

Steve R.

boB wrote:
As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft
kind of jerked
a little bit left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The
aircraft jerked again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was
yelling, the aircraft got strangely quiet.

I've never experienced a real power failure in a
helicopter, but I've heard that your first clue
even before it gets quiet is you are suddenly
flying "sideways"....

Don W.

"Don W" wrote in message
t...

boB wrote:
As I was flying along the nose of the aircraft
kind of jerked
a little bit left. The IP told me to be easier on the pedals. The
aircraft jerked again, the IP hit my leg with his hat and just as he was
yelling, the aircraft got strangely quiet.

I've never experienced a real power failure in a helicopter, but I've
heard that your first clue even before it gets quiet is you are suddenly
flying "sideways"....

Don W.


Well I thing that is a good record - once in 25 years The only real scare
I got was during a test flight... we were up somewhere around 7000 feet and
started entering the autorotation.. when the test pilot rolled the power
down to flight idle the engine out light and alarm went off.. for no reason
whatsoever..
I remember just staring at the N1 gauhe and thinking why isn't it it at 0%..
stupid of me I didn't even reach for the collective...