"C-175 SoCal Beware" Original Poster Replies

Bill,.you have made some very good points.
Imagine you were on a hike and came across some quick sand. Would your
mouth shut about its location because you were afraid someone would
call you a cry baby? I think not. You have done the aviation
community a service by pointing out the wearabouts of these rattle
snakes who prey upon the unsuspecting novices.
On the subject IA's and A&P's. There are good and poor in those
occupations.
I had an experience with a couple of A&P's who worked for an aircraft
manufacturer in Wichita. They were helping remove a cylinder from a
IO-470 and were going to use a prybar to pull the jug until I stopped
them. Before that, they were trying to pry the exhaust manifold to
clear the studs on the cylinder. YIKES!!!!!!! Needless to say, I
stopped them from destroying the enging. These guys were excellent at
sheet metal but did not know beans about engine work. They were
certified A&P mechanics. The IA also worked for the same aircraft
manufacturer and did a very poor job of inspecting the C-205. Some of
the interior floor inspection panels would not come off so he just
looked down the way with a flashlight and said good.
Not a very good way to do an inspection.
I also and not a liscenced A&P but have assisted in the shop at a top
knotch FBO under the direction of some of the best mechanics in the
country.
I have seen and met the type of people Bill is refering to and the
aircraft.
An aircraft is airworthy when the IA signs the paperwork until it is
out the hangar door. As soon as it is out the hangar door, it is the
PIC who determines if that aircraft is airworthy.
Bill, I want to thank you for speaking up and not keeping your head in
the sand.
Clay

(Bill Berle) wrote in message . com...
Wow, you guys... this takes the cake. I figured that a few of you
might bicker a little about what I said, but I could never have
imagined the silly flame war that ensued.

I guess I have a few more folks who dislike me than I had initially
counted. In my life, I have INDEED been at various times a horse's
ass, a buyer of un-airworthy airplanes, and a seller of unairworthy
planes. I've been a womanizer, a liar, a spoiled brat, a whining brat,
and an angry bitter jackass. I've had money to burn and I've clipped
coupons and I've spent money and I've lost money.

But one thing that I have NEVER done, is to turn my back on aviation
or my fellow pilots and owners. I have NEVER kept silent about
something important where my voice (even the voice of a spoiled brat)
could have made a difference. Some people can sit back and say that
it's all on the buyer, and that the seller has every right to just
keep quiet and let the buyer figure out everything for himself, and
screw the buyer if he gets taken. That is a very common mentality in
certain cultures outside of America and well outside of aviation.

For those of you who think that I was wrong, or whining, or crying or
whatever when I posted a warning, I have a couple of questions:

Do any of you understand that the existence of private aviation in
America in 2004 is put at real risk by every private airplane crash
that gets reported on the news? In an election year? That YOUR ability
to go flying on a nice day could easily be destroyed by one Cessna
crashing into a house on the other side of the country from you?

Do any of you understand that an average brand new private pilot with
150 hours would have every reason to believe that if he buys an
airplane with a current annual inspection signoff he has every reason
to think it is safe and airworthy? REGARDLESS OF THE ****ING DOLLAR
PRICE HE PAID???

Do any of you know the difference between a quickie 'pencil whip'
annual inspection on an airplane that there isn't anything seriously
wrong with, and a quickie 'pencil whip' annual on an airplane with
significant mechanical safety issues that need to be addressed before
the next flight?

For the record, there is a reason I said that I am not an IA or
A&P...because I am not one. However, I am fairly educated and have
been around long enough to know a little more than the average owner.
My reason for stating all that originally (and now) is that I
admitted that I did not have the measuring equipment or the license to
determine the exact state of legal airworthiness on that 175. That
being said, I saw several things on a CURSORY inspection that were of
serious concern to me, and that convinced me the airplane was less
than safe. All of the folks who posted negative comments about me or
my post ALSO did not address what I said in any real-world manner.

Even though I did not have the measuring tools or the license to use
them, I said that I knew damn well that Cessna did not build seat
rails with oval shaped holes. NOBODY said anything like "well, I think
Bill Berle is a jackass for XYZ reason, but yes, oval shaped seat rail
holes have KILLED more than one Cessna owner and that is certainly a
big tip-off that the plane might be less than safe."

We are in an economic recession, and used airplane prices have fallen
in some segments. People get desperate to sell for personal reasons.
People have the IRS clawing up their backside round about May or June.
Airplanes OFTEN get bought and sold at bargain prices, both projects
and showplanes.

When an IA mechanic inspector signs off an annual, that means the
airplane is presumed airworthy and within safe limits, even if the
owner wants to sell the plane for 50% of it's retail value a week
later. The IA does NOT have the right to say to the buyer "well, tough
****, you get what you pay for, anyone who thought that $25K would buy
you a really airworthy 175 is an idiot...caveat emptor and all that...
and my signature doesn't count unless you paid $50K for it anyway".

What seems to have been lost in all these intellectual giants' flaming
replies is that there was an airplane presented and advertised as
being flyable, safe, and in-annual. The airplane was at the very least
suspicious because of the results of a very informal cursory
inspection. Since I am NOT a licensed IA, I am NOT in a position to
numerically quantify the wear limits on seat rails, flap tracks,
control yoke play, and aileron circuit friction. However I am well
within my rights and ability to call it into question for IA's, FAA
inspectors, and other potential fraud victims to talk about. I even
told the guy that if the measurements showed it to be within limits I
would publish an apology. Nobody wanted to give me credit for that, I
guess.

Out of a personal dislike for me, my detractors seem to be overlooking
the most universally basic service that pilots and aviation people do
for each other... they look out for each other and always go over and
above what is minimally required, to help prevent an accident. Well,
MOST of us go over and above, Jim.

I have every legal right to stand by and watch some other pilot take
off with a control lock still installed. In my best "caveat emptor"
voice, I could tell the NTSB investigators that the pilot got what he
deserved, because he didn't follow the checklist and didn't do a
proper pre-flight, and that I haven't a care about his widowed wife
and kids. And that the pilot can further burn in hell because I don't
like him, and worse yet I found his tone of voice a little too
'whining' when he was talking about the preflight in the first place.
It appears that THIS is the same kind of logic some of the posters in
this thread would apply. None of you who hide behind that type of
logic are friends of aviation.

My intent was to make people aware of a
potentially...POTENTIALLY...unsafe airplane and a DEFINITELY sleazy
seller. I had to tone down and soften several things to protect myself
from a lawsuit. For the same reason, I had to remind everyone that I
am not legally licensed to say whether this airplane was airworthy,
which one poster took to mean I didn't know much about airplanes. I
know more about airplanes (and I honor our un-written agreement to
help each other) than some of the fish in these waters do.

I feel that I have done the right thing by calling people's attention
to this matter. I will do it again tomorrow or the next day. I am
disgusted that it appears some of you wouldn't do it, just because you
didn't have to.

As for the personal attacks or disparaging comments toward me, I can
live with that far better than I could live with myself if I just sat
back and said "caveat emptor" and allowed this type of behavior to go
un-addressed.

And as for Mr. Weir, I have no idea what I have ever done to earn his
disrespect. He read my original post, looked past all of the substance
and reasoning behind it, and then proclaimed that "all he saw" was a
spoiled brat or an amateur IA wannabee, or whatever. My question, Sir,
is how could you see anything if your view was blocked by the inner
lining of your colon?

Bill Berle
Los Angeles

OK, Jim has a point, in that I made my opinion known without having
numerical data to back up my opinion. I retract my comments to
whatever degree is appropriate based on that alone. My "attitude" in
my last post came from two equal directions. First, as Jim and others
said, I wasted a tank of gas and felt like someone was being less then
forthright with me. But second, when I posted originally, I got flamed
for being a cry baby, or a whiner, or a spoiled brat, and NONE of
those nasty comments were deserved.

Yes, I saw a beater and I was really ****ed off about it, and so I
ranted a little. However, what remains is that I found an airplane
that I SUSPECTED was either unairworthy or very close to it on several
levels. I feel that a less-educated or less-experienced person MIGHT
have been taken for a ride, so I figured that (personal irritation
aside) it was worth mentioning. If my post made ONE airplane buyer
look a little more closely at an airplane he was buying, then I stand
by my words in a Nomex tuxedo.

Another underlying point I was trying to make was that even though I
am willing to rely on my own un-licensed, "eyeball" judgement, I
recommended that buyers beware and that it is a good idea to get a
real pre-buy inspection if you can. Obviously Jim or any other good IA
would know a lot more than I.

I truly wish that I had taken the time to (learn which, and then)
bring the right drill bits and have the numerical information with me
that day, and so I could have posted that this particular airplane
was/was not within the limits. My position was that if it was even
reasonably average, I would have bought the airplane and then restored
or upgraded it over time while I was flying it.

I will issue an apology to the seller if it is found that the seat
rails were within legal limits, that is, if I were willing to even
speak to him. I will issue an apology to the newsgroup(s) for being a
cry baby, and I'll offer an apology to Jim Weir if I poked back at him
a little too quickly. I'll offer an apology to the manufacturer of the
T and Z drill bits as well while I'm at it.

The experienced Cessna mechanics I have spoken to assure me that
replacing the seat rails is a real pain in the ass, and is far more
difficult than others in the newsgroup have assumed. I have not
replaced Cessna seat rails, so I can't say from experience. I
understand that it is a very painful and awkward task to get at the
backside of several of the rivets, and many shops use Cherry rivets or
other blind rivets to do it out of necessity.

If I misunderstood or was uninformed about an AD on the flap tracks,
then I will issue yet another apology. In my personal un-licensed and
apparently foolish opinion, you should not be able to wiggle the flaps
up and down an inch, hearing the rollers thump back and forth in the
tracks. One Cessna-experienced IA told me that you should not be able
to put more than one business card thickness between the roller and
the track. I am sure that there is some official feeler gauge
measurement, but I didn't have that info with me either.

I also would have bet that frozen aileron pushrod ball joints are not
considered airworthy. I was trained to rotate the ball joints a few
degrees each way with your fingers on a pre-flight inspection, to make
sure the joints are not frozen. I was NOT of the opinion that you
should need a wrench or needle-nose pliers to rotate the ball joints,
finger pressure should be enough. I am not aware of any numerical
measurement on that.

I was trained as a brand new student pilot that the controls should be
"free and clear", observed by BOTH moving the control surfaces with
finger pressure AND the lack of excess friction at the control yoke.
There was no numerical measurement that I recall, just good old common
sense and average mechanical aptitude.

Silly me, I also ASSUMED that you should NOT be able to move the
pilot's side control yoke up and down vertically twice as much as the
copilot's side.

That 175 MIGHT have been legal to fly, but it was a worn out beater
and there were significant maintenance concerns that would have been a
major issue either now or at some time in the near future. Period.
Somebody should have bought it for five or ten grand, trucked it home,
and restored it into a "Classic Era" Oshkosh champion.

Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.

Bill

On 7 Jul 2004 10:36:41 -0700, (Bill Berle) wrote:

snip

The experienced Cessna mechanics I have spoken to assure me that
replacing the seat rails is a real pain in the ass, and is far more
difficult than others in the newsgroup have assumed. I have not
replaced Cessna seat rails, so I can't say from experience. I
understand that it is a very painful and awkward task to get at the
backside of several of the rivets, and many shops use Cherry rivets or
other blind rivets to do it out of necessity.

I suppose everything is relative.... I've had the entire floors
drilled off (front & rear) in under an hour. Makes seat track
replacement easy grins and you can also take the opportunity
to clean the inner belly of all that crap that has accumulated there
over the years.

You need the right bucking bars to get at all the rivets (might have
to make/modify one or two).

I agree the average owner may not want to tackle this.... (under
the supervision of an A&P/IA, of course). I only wanted to mention
that (at least in my opinion), it ain't that big a deal....

snip

Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.

Bill

Stick around. Every now & then we get our feathers ruffled
(been there myself). In the grand scheme of things (the meaning
of life, etc.), it's no big deal....

Bela P. Havasreti

Bela...

You are probably ten times the sheet metal man than I am. I limit my expertise
to paperwork, inspection, and avionics (not necessarily in that order).

However, if you can do a Cessna seat rail, with real buck-em rivets and not the
approved bolts, inside of two hours, then I will bring my airplane to YOU when
the next rail needs replacing.

I helped the IA that knew what he was doing on the last pass, and the only thing
I want to do less next time is put the fuel cells in (and don't get me started
on THAT bloody trail).

Hey, Berle, stick around. We all take turns getting our ass nailed to the floor
{;-)



Jim



Bela P. Havasreti
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
-I suppose everything is relative.... I've had the entire floors
-drilled off (front & rear) in under an hour. Makes seat track
-replacement easy grins and you can also take the opportunity
-to clean the inner belly of all that crap that has accumulated there
-over the years.
-
-You need the right bucking bars to get at all the rivets (might have
-to make/modify one or two).
-
-I agree the average owner may not want to tackle this.... (under
-the supervision of an A&P/IA, of course). I only wanted to mention
-that (at least in my opinion), it ain't that big a deal....
-
-snip
-
-Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.
-
-Bill
-
-Stick around. Every now & then we get our feathers ruffled
-(been there myself). In the grand scheme of things (the meaning
-of life, etc.), it's no big deal....
-
-Bela P. Havasreti



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:23:13 -0700, Jim Weir wrote:

How do I respond to that without sounding like a complete ass? (don't
answer that question!). I guess if I can hang my hat on something,
it's being a half-way-decent sheet metal man.

Just recently, I helped a good buddy do new fuel cells on a '57 C-180.
We pulled the wings and drilled off the (inboard) butt-ribs.
I am at a loss as to how folks can accomplish this task without
pulling the wings.... (i.e, remove the old fuel cells and offer the
new fuel cells down into the wing bays through that 10 inch diameter,
or whatever it is fuel filler hole in the top of the wings). Not to
mention getting all the clips/hangars snapped (that was tough enough
with the wings pulled). Anyway, they are far better wrenches, and far
more patient then I am....

I guess in simple terms, via my long-term project I've been working on
for the last 8+ years, drilling scores of rivets out, removing skin
panels and riveting newly fabricated ones back on has become my
"briar patch".

Bela P. Havasreti

Bela...

You are probably ten times the sheet metal man than I am. I limit my expertise
to paperwork, inspection, and avionics (not necessarily in that order).

However, if you can do a Cessna seat rail, with real buck-em rivets and not the
approved bolts, inside of two hours, then I will bring my airplane to YOU when
the next rail needs replacing.

I helped the IA that knew what he was doing on the last pass, and the only thing
I want to do less next time is put the fuel cells in (and don't get me started
on THAT bloody trail).

Hey, Berle, stick around. We all take turns getting our ass nailed to the floor
{;-)



Jim



Bela P. Havasreti
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
-I suppose everything is relative.... I've had the entire floors
-drilled off (front & rear) in under an hour. Makes seat track
-replacement easy grins and you can also take the opportunity
-to clean the inner belly of all that crap that has accumulated there
-over the years.
-
-You need the right bucking bars to get at all the rivets (might have
-to make/modify one or two).
-
-I agree the average owner may not want to tackle this.... (under
-the supervision of an A&P/IA, of course). I only wanted to mention
-that (at least in my opinion), it ain't that big a deal....
-
-snip
-
-Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.
-
-Bill
-
-Stick around. Every now & then we get our feathers ruffled
-(been there myself). In the grand scheme of things (the meaning
-of life, etc.), it's no big deal....
-
-Bela P. Havasreti



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com