Co-pilots May Sim instead of Fly to Train

I tried an experiment at work today along the lines of this discussion. We
used our ASA sim configured with a Baron as the aircraft. This sim is
approved by the FAA for flight and proficiency training - we're not talking
MSFS here, this sim is meant for IFR proficiency training.

I had two employees with zero flying experience (neither sim nor actual)
attempt the ILS-6 at KBDL with the weather at minimums (200 and 1/2). Both
of them were successful on their very first attempt when using the flight
director for guidance and although there were some huge excursions along the
way, both got the aircraft to the runway threshold - both failed very early
in the approach when they attempted to do it without the help of the flight
director.

Do I think either of them could do it for real just because they did it in
the office on the sim - nope, not a chance. What does this tell me? - just
because you can do it in the sim doesn't mean you can do it when it counts.

The sim has its place for sure, but it will never replace actual experience.

I did my first skydive quite awhile ago before tandems were popular. I
remember we went over everything on the ground at the airplane before going
up. The jump master explained everything and we went through it
step-by-step; now the door opens, now you shift yourself partially out the
door, now you hang from the strut, etc. We did that several times so
everyone felt comfortable. We all knew we were ready - it seemed pretty
simple really. Then we took off and climbed to altitude. Let me tell you,
when that door flies open and the wind is rushing by and you have to shift
yourself out the door with your foot being blown back and the ground down
there 3500 feet below, it was all quite a shock and a rush compared to that
"simulation" we did on the ground.

BDS

BDS wrote:
Do I think either of them could do it for real just because they did it in
the office on the sim - nope, not a chance. What does this tell me? - just
because you can do it in the sim doesn't mean you can do it when it counts.

True, it doesn't mean you can't either, or that some sim time wouldn't
have helped.

Think of all the non-pilots who manage to get a plane down (with some
external guidance) when the pilot is incapacitated in-flight. My wife
refuses to learn to take flying lessons, but she's comfortable doing
emergency scenarios on the sim, and it makes me feel better knowing
that she has even "just" sim practice.

For that matter, who needs sims? I remember my first flight. The CFI
let me take off and fly. He landed the first time, then I took off
again and landed (without help) the second time. Much of that was dumb
luck (and zero winds ;-) but it happens all over the country every day.

The sim has its place for sure, but it will never replace actual experience.

I "gut feel' the same way, but I'm guessing that future sims will do so
a lot... partly because actual experience doesn't let you play out a
lot of dangerous scenarios. For example, I was surprised several
years back when I tried an engine-out in clouds in MSFS just for fun.
Guess what happened as I glided down? The AI slowly spun down and
tipped over, because of no engine vacuum! Holy moly, eye opener.
This is not something that happens in real-life practice sessions
because we don't actually shut down the engine.

Regards, Kev

"Kev" wrote in message
ups.com...
BDS wrote:
Do I think either of them could do it for real just because they did it
in
the office on the sim - nope, not a chance. What does this tell me? -
just
because you can do it in the sim doesn't mean you can do it when it
counts.

True, it doesn't mean you can't either, or that some sim time wouldn't
have helped.

Agreed - sim time is valuable for many things, but I do not believe that it
can take the place of real life training and experience. Each has its
place, and each is valuable in its own way.

I "gut feel' the same way, but I'm guessing that future sims will do so
a lot... partly because actual experience doesn't let you play out a
lot of dangerous scenarios. For example, I was surprised several
years back when I tried an engine-out in clouds in MSFS just for fun.
Guess what happened as I glided down? The AI slowly spun down and
tipped over, because of no engine vacuum! Holy moly, eye opener.
This is not something that happens in real-life practice sessions
because we don't actually shut down the engine.

It happens when you practice partial panel with instruments covered up -
obviously the engine is still running but if you are lousy at partial panel
all that may do is get you to the scene of the crash faster.

That said, there is no doubt that sims can give you training in scenarios
that would be impractical, difficult, or too dangerous to set up in real
life. That's what simulator-based recurrency training is all about.

BDS

This is not something that happens in real-life practice sessions
because we don't actually shut down the engine.

It happens when you practice partial panel with instruments covered up -

Yes, but then you =know= you don't have the AI. If it's a surprise to
you, you may follow the failed AI into the ground. (Ok, chances are
good you're visual, and if you're not, you're in doo doo anyway)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

BDS writes:

It happens when you practice partial panel with instruments covered up -
obviously the engine is still running but if you are lousy at partial panel
all that may do is get you to the scene of the crash faster.

If you want real-life practice, shut down the engine, and make sure
that it is not restartable. Otherwise it's just ... simulation.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
BDS writes:

It happens when you practice partial panel with instruments covered up -
obviously the engine is still running but if you are lousy at partial
panel
all that may do is get you to the scene of the crash faster.

If you want real-life practice, shut down the engine, and make sure
that it is not restartable. Otherwise it's just ... simulation.

Maybe so, but it's a far cry from the type of simulation you are doing
sitting in front of your PC. The level of stress is much higher and the
pilot gets experience performing under stress. This doesn't matter if
flying a sim is your goal in life, but it helps if flying in the real world
is.

BDS

BDS writes:

Maybe so, but it's a far cry from the type of simulation you are doing
sitting in front of your PC.

There are all different types of simulation, and they all have their
purpose.

Just idling an engine is not at all the same as losing it completely,
and in this instance, a PC simulation may actually be closer to
reality.

The level of stress is much higher and the pilot gets experience
performing under stress.

There's a lot more to flying than stress. Stress isn't any good if
you don't know what to do.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Kev writes:

I "gut feel' the same way, but I'm guessing that future sims will do so
a lot... partly because actual experience doesn't let you play out a
lot of dangerous scenarios. For example, I was surprised several
years back when I tried an engine-out in clouds in MSFS just for fun.
Guess what happened as I glided down? The AI slowly spun down and
tipped over, because of no engine vacuum! Holy moly, eye opener.
This is not something that happens in real-life practice sessions
because we don't actually shut down the engine.

That's a typical scenario for which sims can provide life-saving
experience.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

BDS writes:

Do I think either of them could do it for real just because they did it in
the office on the sim - nope, not a chance. What does this tell me? - just
because you can do it in the sim doesn't mean you can do it when it counts.

No, it just tells you that you don't believe they could do it for
real. Without actually trying it, you'll never know.

There's a good chance that they could do it for real, depending on
their personalities.

The sim has its place for sure, but it will never replace actual experience.

Saying that over and over doesn't make it true.

I did my first skydive quite awhile ago before tandems were popular. I
remember we went over everything on the ground at the airplane before going
up. The jump master explained everything and we went through it
step-by-step; now the door opens, now you shift yourself partially out the
door, now you hang from the strut, etc. We did that several times so
everyone felt comfortable. We all knew we were ready - it seemed pretty
simple really. Then we took off and climbed to altitude. Let me tell you,
when that door flies open and the wind is rushing by and you have to shift
yourself out the door with your foot being blown back and the ground down
there 3500 feet below, it was all quite a shock and a rush compared to that
"simulation" we did on the ground.

That was you. But not everyone is like you.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

Do I think either of them could do it for real just because they did it
in
the office on the sim - nope, not a chance. What does this tell me? -
just
because you can do it in the sim doesn't mean you can do it when it
counts.

No, it just tells you that you don't believe they could do it for
real. Without actually trying it, you'll never know.

Would you care to sit in the back seat when someone tries this?

Do a search of the NTSB records and see how many "continued VFR" type
accidents you can find.

There's a good chance that they could do it for real, depending on
their personalities.

Preposterous.

The sim has its place for sure, but it will never replace actual
experience.

Saying that over and over doesn't make it true.

Obviously nothing, including facts and real world evidence will suffice to
convince you.

I did my first skydive quite awhile ago before tandems were popular. I

That was you. But not everyone is like you.

Yes, that is true.

BDS