Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.

As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably, the
approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your approach
with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

If you intended to land, then the clearance would (should) have been given
as Sam said.


Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to the
right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what altitude?

The pattern you execute depends on a lot of factors, among them are the
geometry between the approach course and the designated landing runway
and the pattern in use or requested by the tower.

For training at the local towered airport here in Sacramento, they
expect the airplane to descend to circling minimums and fly a modified
pattern (at circling alt and closer in to the runway).

In our case, the approach and landing runways are opposite ends of
the same pavement, so we just turn 45 degrees toward the downwind leg,
and turn downwind once we get there. This way, we can keep the airport
in sight (practicing for low visibility).

When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).

The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.

Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.

Allen



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote in
:

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
visual rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
clearance; Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34
Hawkins.

As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably,
the approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your
approach with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

I had requested an ILS approach after the approach when I received the
clearance, so approach knew I wasn't doing a full stop.

When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).

Before I got my Garmin 430, all I could do was circle to land at my home
airport KMBO. Even with my new addition, I request the VOR Alpha as it
makes it real easy to join the pattern when VFR traffic in the mix.

Allen

On 12/22/06 21:06, A Lieberma wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote in
:

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
visual rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
clearance; Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34
Hawkins.

As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably,
the approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your
approach with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

I had requested an ILS approach after the approach when I received the
clearance, so approach knew I wasn't doing a full stop.

I would argue that ATC thought you *were* doing a full stop, otherwise
they wouldn't tell you to circle.

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.



When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).

Before I got my Garmin 430, all I could do was circle to land at my home
airport KMBO. Even with my new addition, I request the VOR Alpha as it
makes it real easy to join the pattern when VFR traffic in the mix.

Allen



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.

A clearance for a missed doesn't include a clearance for a circle, but
one can certainly go missed after circling.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.

A clearance for a missed doesn't include a clearance for a circle, but
one can certainly go missed after circling.

Jose

Just to be clear about this...

Let's say the airport is using 34, and you're cleared by approach control
for the ILS-16 circle to 34 in VFR conditions as a practice approach. It
would be a very poor idea indeed for you to execute the circling maneuver,
do a low approach, then decide to execute the published missed on your own.
This would have you swimming upstream against the traffic on final for 34.

If that's what you really want to do, make sure you verify your intentions
with the tower. If there's no conflicting traffic, they should be able to
let you do it, but that would be unusual. When I'm with a student,
negotiating these sorts of things with ATC is part of my job.

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Jose wrote:

Let's say the airport is using 34, and you're cleared by approach control
for the ILS-16 circle to 34 in VFR conditions as a practice approach. It
would be a very poor idea indeed for you to execute the circling maneuver,
do a low approach, then decide to execute the published missed on your own.
This would have you swimming upstream against the traffic on final for 34.

Well, the way we are supposed to execute a missed approach is turn
towards the airport environment and then fly the procedure as published
unless otherwise told by ATC. So, if shooting the ILS-16 CTL 34 the
Pilot would fly the published MAP for the ILS-16 approach. If he
looses visual reference with the runway on downwind 34 he sould make an
initial climbing (90º) turn towards the runway (not necessary if
already on base) and then once he estimates he is over the runway, he
should execute the MAP as published unless otherwise told or vectored
by ATC.

While I'm here I have an interesting one for you:

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I was told by a Pilot Controller Journalist that although maybe not
safe, he could not see any reason why it wouldn't be perfectly legal.

Can you discuss the uncontrolled and controlled field issues associated
with this ?

Your points of view are welcome.

Thanks

In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.