Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Jose wrote:

Let's say the airport is using 34, and you're cleared by approach control
for the ILS-16 circle to 34 in VFR conditions as a practice approach. It
would be a very poor idea indeed for you to execute the circling maneuver,
do a low approach, then decide to execute the published missed on your own.
This would have you swimming upstream against the traffic on final for 34.

Well, the way we are supposed to execute a missed approach is turn
towards the airport environment and then fly the procedure as published
unless otherwise told by ATC. So, if shooting the ILS-16 CTL 34 the
Pilot would fly the published MAP for the ILS-16 approach. If he
looses visual reference with the runway on downwind 34 he sould make an
initial climbing (90º) turn towards the runway (not necessary if
already on base) and then once he estimates he is over the runway, he
should execute the MAP as published unless otherwise told or vectored
by ATC.

While I'm here I have an interesting one for you:

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I was told by a Pilot Controller Journalist that although maybe not
safe, he could not see any reason why it wouldn't be perfectly legal.

Can you discuss the uncontrolled and controlled field issues associated
with this ?

Your points of view are welcome.

Thanks

In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.

Hi Doug and Merry Christmas

The question was geared towards non precsion approaches such as LOC,
VOR NDB.

Doug wrote:
In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug ]
Posted At: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:47 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
Subject: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.

The question was about a LOC 16, not the ILS so the minimums would have
been higher. Also, the question was about legality not good operating
sense. ;-)

Since you are cleared for the approach, the airspace is yours until you
land, miss, or land harder. Assuming the MDA is at least 600' in a light
aircraft I'd probably be inclined to execute the 360 overhead - after
all, the old pattern altitudes used to be 800' and the 600' would keep
me above obstructions in the immediate vicinity.

Here's another good reason for not shooting LOCs into short fields.

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?


I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

Jose

If you have the required flight visibility required for circle-to-land
what you suggest would be legal and (assuming a good skill level)
possibly preferable to doing the miss and starting all over again.

On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:
You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.

Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.

If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
that before flying the ILS to minimums?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.


The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.

Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.

If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
that before flying the ILS to minimums?


The regulation is written for flight conditions less than minimums.
Like I said, if he had the flight visibility for circling he would be
quite legal in doing what he proposed. And, the gears were shifted to
an NPA for the question.

Jose and Mark

I forgot to mention that I assumed that either circling minimums were
equal to staright-in LOC minimums or for whatever reason, the aircraft
did not descend below circling minimums at any time.

Mark

The Pilot in this example was not shooting the ILS 34 but the LOC-16.
He finds himself seeing the runway to high to land on 16. Hope this
clarifies the situation.

I once did a CTL at the end of a VOR app on a very convective rainy
night. I made the runway but the Lear behind couldn't and missed.
Should I have been in the previously described situation I would have
rather done the 360 circling than going back into that s..t again.


Mark Hansen wrote:
On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:
You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.

Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.

If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
that before flying the ILS to minimums?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

fcoav8r wrote:
Jose and Mark

I forgot to mention that I assumed that either circling minimums were
equal to staright-in LOC minimums or for whatever reason, the aircraft
did not descend below circling minimums at any time.

Mark

The Pilot in this example was not shooting the ILS 34 but the LOC-16.
He finds himself seeing the runway to high to land on 16. Hope this
clarifies the situation.

And, if he has the required flight visibility for circle-to-land
minimums, and has not yet reached the MAP, he can climb tp the
circle-to-land MDA, then cirle to land, provided he still has the
require flight visibility and has sight of the airport.