IFR Cancellation Question

On 12/26/06 19:41, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

So you dodged my question. I'll assume that means that you realized you
were wrong ;-)


I didn't dodge your question, I thought the distinction you were seeking was
in what ATC facility to call. I never said it applies only if the pilot
intends to land at the Class D airport.

I'll try to lay it out for you.

Allen said:

Just like Mark said, pilot is in communication with ATC.

I have been in HKS airspace many a times without talking to tower while
manuevering around downtown Jackson at 2000 feet. I have always been in
contact with JAN during these times and never switched over to HKS.


to which you said:

We're not talking about those kinds of flights. We're talking about a
flight that intends to land at a towered field at the center of Class D
airspace

Doesn't that mean that you believe flights intending to land at the Class
D airport must be in communication with the tower before entering the
Class D airspace, while through-flights do not?

Otherwise, what did you mean by "We're not talking about those kinds of
flights..."?






And why do you think the approach controller handing the area does not
meet this regulation?


Because approach control has no authority over VFR operations in Class D
airspace.


What does VFR operations have to do with it? This is not a distinction made
by the regulations (if I'm wrong, please cite the reg).


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

I'll try to lay it out for you.


Appreciate it.



Allen said:

Just like Mark said, pilot is in communication with ATC.

I have been in HKS airspace many a times without talking to tower while
manuevering around downtown Jackson at 2000 feet. I have always been in
contact with JAN during these times and never switched over to HKS.


to which you said:

We're not talking about those kinds of flights. We're talking about a
flight that intends to land at a towered field at the center of Class D
airspace

Doesn't that mean that you believe flights intending to land at the Class
D airport must be in communication with the tower before entering the
Class D airspace, while through-flights do not?


That's correct. The radar controller can coordinate flights through Class D
airspace with the tower but flights that are landing at the towered field
must be shipped to the tower prior to entering Class D airspace. See FAAO
7110.65 paragraphs 2-1-16.b. and c. below. If you're landing and you're
still on flight following when you cross the Class D boundary it's probably
because the radar controller forgot about you, but his error does not
absolve you of compliance with FAR 91.129(c)(1). Compliance with applicable
FARs is your responsibility.


FAA Order 7110.65R Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.



What does VFR operations have to do with it? This is not a distinction
made by the regulations (if I'm wrong, please cite the reg).


You're wrong, I'll cite the regulation for you again:

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace
must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of
foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic
services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.


The regulation requires two-way radio communications to be established with
*the* ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that
airspace. It's specific, it doesn't say *an* ATC facility providing
services. As you interpret the regulation, establishing radio
communications with ARR tower would authorize entry into the JVL Class D
airspace.

What does VFR operations have to do with it? This is not a distinction
made by the regulations (if I'm wrong, please cite the reg).
You're wrong, I'll cite the regulation for you again:

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
[snip]
The regulation requires two-way radio communications to be established with
*the* ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that
airspace. It's specific, it doesn't say *an* ATC facility providing
services.

Nothing there says anything about IFR or VFR. As for =the= ATC
facility, there is no distinction in the regs that pilots are presumed
to be familiar with for through flights vs terminating flights.

I see your point:
The radar controller can coordinate flights through Class D
airspace with the tower but flights that are landing at the towered field
must be shipped to the tower prior to entering Class D airspace.

After all, the tower's specific authority is over the runways, not over
over the runways, and this would require communication with the actual
tower if one is landing there. But 91.129 says "with the ATC facility
([...]) providing air traffic services", and this doesn't (as you state
above) require it to be the tower, if there is some letter of agreement
that some other ATC facility will provide the services. Pilots are not
expected to be aware of all the letters of agreement, are they?

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

Nothing there says anything about IFR or VFR. As for =the= ATC facility,
there is no distinction in the regs that pilots are presumed to be
familiar with for through flights vs terminating flights.


I agree the regs are rather poorly written. If you can think of some
services provided inside the Class D airspace to VFR arrivals by the radar
controller I'll agree there is no distinction in the regs between the tower
and radar controller.



I see your point:
The radar controller can coordinate flights through Class D airspace with
the tower but flights that are landing at the towered field must be
shipped to the tower prior to entering Class D airspace.

After all, the tower's specific authority is over the runways, not over
over the runways, and this would require communication with the actual
tower if one is landing there. But 91.129 says "with the ATC facility
([...]) providing air traffic services", and this doesn't (as you state
above) require it to be the tower, if there is some letter of agreement
that some other ATC facility will provide the services. Pilots are not
expected to be aware of all the letters of agreement, are they?


I'm not familiar with any letters of agreement like that. Can you provide
an example? What services would be provided to VFR arrivals inside the
Class D airspace by the radar controller at the overlying facility?

I agree the regs are rather poorly written.

We agree on =something=!

I'm not familiar with any letters of agreement like that.

I have never seen letters of agreement. I do know that letters of
agreement exist which allow me to perform some operations which would
normally be expected to require communication with one facility by
communicating with a different one. Not having seen any of these
letters of agreement, I don't really know which operations are covered,
and when, and under what circumstances. I know this because I have
requested that one controller coordinate my transit through another's
airspace, and been granted that request. (Yes, I am trusting that the
controller is operating properly in doing so).

Now the question really becomes =which= services are elegible for
letters of agreement, and which are not. It appears to be your
contention (with which I agree) that landing at a Class D airport (sorry
- "a towered airport within class D airspace" is a service or
operation which is not elegible for a letter of agreement that would
allow a different facility to provide those services.

However, nothing in part 91 or 61 with which I am familiar makes that
distinction. In fact, I've yet to find anything in part 91 or 61 that
even mentions letters of agreement.

If I am approaching a Class D airport and the approach controller gives
me an actual landing clearance instead of "contact the tower...", maybe
the controller made an error. But maybe there is some sort of letter of
agreement that I don't know about. I'd ask, if I could get a word in
edgewise. But as a practical matter, if the field really is IFR, I'm
the only one that should be there anyway, and I'd have no reason to
assume that the clearance is invalid.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:


Now the question really becomes =which= services are elegible for
letters of agreement, and which are not. It appears to be your
contention (with which I agree) that landing at a Class D airport (sorry
- "a towered airport within class D airspace" is a service or
operation which is not elegible for a letter of agreement that would
allow a different facility to provide those services.

Well not "cleared to land." But it is not required that a controller
terminate an aircraft before he enters a class D area. That's
ridiculous. Both Denver and Minneapolis will tell you to contact the
tower after you are clear of all other traffic ande you may or may not
be in the class D. Either way the tower knows you're inbound.





If I am approaching a Class D airport and the approach controller gives
me an actual landing clearance instead of "contact the tower...", maybe
the controller made an error.

Maybe? I'd like to hear that tape.


But maybe there is some sort of letter of
agreement that I don't know about.

All TRACON's will have a letter of agreement with class D's under their
airspace.

Newps wrote in
:

Now the question really becomes =which= services are elegible for
letters of agreement, and which are not. It appears to be your
contention (with which I agree) that landing at a Class D airport
(sorry - "a towered airport within class D airspace" is a service
or operation which is not elegible for a letter of agreement that
would allow a different facility to provide those services.

Well not "cleared to land." But it is not required that a controller
terminate an aircraft before he enters a class D area. That's
ridiculous. Both Denver and Minneapolis will tell you to contact the
tower after you are clear of all other traffic ande you may or may not
be in the class D. Either way the tower knows you're inbound.

Thank you Newps,

Based on Steven's responses, I'd be busting FARS all the time.....

I have been in KHKS Delta airspace many times without talking to tower,
but only to approach controllers,

I have been cleared for the approach with landing INSTRUCTIONS by
approach while doing approaches (both VFR and IFR handling).

After all, VFR traffic doesn't get cleared for approaches.

And yes, within Delta airspace, I have been switched to tower (via prompt
by me - like a gentle reminder N1943L 2 miles inside Brenz) so I could
get the magic words cleared to land by tower.

Allen

Maybe? I'd like to hear that tape.

Maybe. The rules can change, and I might not be aware of such a change.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On 12/27/06 11:38, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

I'll try to lay it out for you.


Appreciate it.



Allen said:

Just like Mark said, pilot is in communication with ATC.

I have been in HKS airspace many a times without talking to tower while
manuevering around downtown Jackson at 2000 feet. I have always been in
contact with JAN during these times and never switched over to HKS.


to which you said:

We're not talking about those kinds of flights. We're talking about a
flight that intends to land at a towered field at the center of Class D
airspace

Doesn't that mean that you believe flights intending to land at the Class
D airport must be in communication with the tower before entering the
Class D airspace, while through-flights do not?


That's correct. The radar controller can coordinate flights through Class D
airspace with the tower but flights that are landing at the towered field
must be shipped to the tower prior to entering Class D airspace. See FAAO
7110.65 paragraphs 2-1-16.b. and c. below.

Pilots don't operate under 7110.65. We use Part 91. Show me where, under
Part 91, it says that intending to land at a Class D airport requires
communication with the Class D tower before entering Class D airspace.

If you're landing and you're
still on flight following when you cross the Class D boundary it's probably
because the radar controller forgot about you, but his error does not
absolve you of compliance with FAR 91.129(c)(1).

In this case, 91.129(c)(1) has been fully complied with.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You just keep
regurgitating the same FAR.

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

Pilots don't operate under 7110.65. We use Part 91. Show me where, under
Part 91, it says that intending to land at a Class D airport requires
communication with the Class D tower before entering Class D airspace.


I have, three times now.



In this case, 91.129(c)(1) has been fully complied with.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You just keep
regurgitating the same FAR.


And you keep misinterpreting it.