IFR Cancellation Question

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

Nothing there says anything about IFR or VFR. As for =the= ATC facility,
there is no distinction in the regs that pilots are presumed to be
familiar with for through flights vs terminating flights.


I agree the regs are rather poorly written. If you can think of some
services provided inside the Class D airspace to VFR arrivals by the radar
controller I'll agree there is no distinction in the regs between the tower
and radar controller.



I see your point:
The radar controller can coordinate flights through Class D airspace with
the tower but flights that are landing at the towered field must be
shipped to the tower prior to entering Class D airspace.

After all, the tower's specific authority is over the runways, not over
over the runways, and this would require communication with the actual
tower if one is landing there. But 91.129 says "with the ATC facility
([...]) providing air traffic services", and this doesn't (as you state
above) require it to be the tower, if there is some letter of agreement
that some other ATC facility will provide the services. Pilots are not
expected to be aware of all the letters of agreement, are they?


I'm not familiar with any letters of agreement like that. Can you provide
an example? What services would be provided to VFR arrivals inside the
Class D airspace by the radar controller at the overlying facility?

I agree the regs are rather poorly written.

We agree on =something=!

I'm not familiar with any letters of agreement like that.

I have never seen letters of agreement. I do know that letters of
agreement exist which allow me to perform some operations which would
normally be expected to require communication with one facility by
communicating with a different one. Not having seen any of these
letters of agreement, I don't really know which operations are covered,
and when, and under what circumstances. I know this because I have
requested that one controller coordinate my transit through another's
airspace, and been granted that request. (Yes, I am trusting that the
controller is operating properly in doing so).

Now the question really becomes =which= services are elegible for
letters of agreement, and which are not. It appears to be your
contention (with which I agree) that landing at a Class D airport (sorry
- "a towered airport within class D airspace" is a service or
operation which is not elegible for a letter of agreement that would
allow a different facility to provide those services.

However, nothing in part 91 or 61 with which I am familiar makes that
distinction. In fact, I've yet to find anything in part 91 or 61 that
even mentions letters of agreement.

If I am approaching a Class D airport and the approach controller gives
me an actual landing clearance instead of "contact the tower...", maybe
the controller made an error. But maybe there is some sort of letter of
agreement that I don't know about. I'd ask, if I could get a word in
edgewise. But as a practical matter, if the field really is IFR, I'm
the only one that should be there anyway, and I'd have no reason to
assume that the clearance is invalid.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:


Now the question really becomes =which= services are elegible for
letters of agreement, and which are not. It appears to be your
contention (with which I agree) that landing at a Class D airport (sorry
- "a towered airport within class D airspace" is a service or
operation which is not elegible for a letter of agreement that would
allow a different facility to provide those services.

Well not "cleared to land." But it is not required that a controller
terminate an aircraft before he enters a class D area. That's
ridiculous. Both Denver and Minneapolis will tell you to contact the
tower after you are clear of all other traffic ande you may or may not
be in the class D. Either way the tower knows you're inbound.





If I am approaching a Class D airport and the approach controller gives
me an actual landing clearance instead of "contact the tower...", maybe
the controller made an error.

Maybe? I'd like to hear that tape.


But maybe there is some sort of letter of
agreement that I don't know about.

All TRACON's will have a letter of agreement with class D's under their
airspace.

Newps wrote in
:

Now the question really becomes =which= services are elegible for
letters of agreement, and which are not. It appears to be your
contention (with which I agree) that landing at a Class D airport
(sorry - "a towered airport within class D airspace" is a service
or operation which is not elegible for a letter of agreement that
would allow a different facility to provide those services.

Well not "cleared to land." But it is not required that a controller
terminate an aircraft before he enters a class D area. That's
ridiculous. Both Denver and Minneapolis will tell you to contact the
tower after you are clear of all other traffic ande you may or may not
be in the class D. Either way the tower knows you're inbound.

Thank you Newps,

Based on Steven's responses, I'd be busting FARS all the time.....

I have been in KHKS Delta airspace many times without talking to tower,
but only to approach controllers,

I have been cleared for the approach with landing INSTRUCTIONS by
approach while doing approaches (both VFR and IFR handling).

After all, VFR traffic doesn't get cleared for approaches.

And yes, within Delta airspace, I have been switched to tower (via prompt
by me - like a gentle reminder N1943L 2 miles inside Brenz) so I could
get the magic words cleared to land by tower.

Allen

Maybe? I'd like to hear that tape.

Maybe. The rules can change, and I might not be aware of such a change.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

Maybe? I'd like to hear that tape.


Maybe. The rules can change, and I might not be aware of such a change.

Actually now that I think about it we have had the approach controller
clear an aircraft to land. Approach tells aircraft to contact tower.
He never does. On real short final tower calls down and tells approach
controller to clear him to land. Guy probably never makes that mistake
again. Another way to get the point across is to let the guy land
without a clearance and then have the approach controller tell him where
to turn off and contact ground. He'll know then. There have been tower
radio problems and we have just had the tower controller tell the
approach controller over the landline to tell the pilot cleared to land.

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..
Actually now that I think about it we have had the approach controller
clear an aircraft to land. Approach tells aircraft to contact tower. He
never does. On real short final tower calls down and tells approach
controller to clear him to land. Guy probably never makes that mistake
again. Another way to get the point across is to let the guy land without
a clearance and then have the approach controller tell him where to turn
off and contact ground. He'll know then. There have been tower radio
problems and we have just had the tower controller tell the approach
controller over the landline to tell the pilot cleared to land.

A VFR aircraft making a practice ASR or PAR approach, monitored ILS, or
flight-followed approach will enter the Class D airspace and continue to
receive ATC services while remaining in contact with approach control.
Switching to tower won't happen until after the aircraft has landed.

This happens around the clock, every day, all over the country. No FARs are
being violated by anyone involved.