Downdraft at 12,000 feet

"JGalban" wrote

Which is exactly where you'd expect to find a rotor from the wave
spilling over the mountain. Flying into a rotor is more than just your
average downdraft. If it's strong, you can expect serious pitch and
bank excursions. Simply put, the plane can easily be out of control.
Combine that with IMC and loss of control would probably not be far
behind.

From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat
out with the wings still attached to the plane.

Loss of control? Certainly.

Loss of plane? Perhaps.

Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure.

Jer ? ? ?
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote:
From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat
out with the wings still attached to the plane.

Loss of control? Certainly.

Loss of plane? Perhaps.

Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure.

Can't say with authority but no way will I go anywhere near a rotor.
High winds over the Rockies and I don't fly over the mountains.

I have experienced downdrafts and updrafts but nowhere near a rotor.

Ron Lee

Morgans schrieb:

From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat
out with the wings still attached to the plane.

Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure.

Glider pilots use rotors routinely as an elevator to the wave. At some
places, the tow plane tows them right into the rotor. (Formation flight
into the rotor.) So far, all wings still in place and everybody still
alive. Just make sure you stay well below vB.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Morgans schrieb:

From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be
spat out with the wings still attached to the plane.

Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure.

Glider pilots use rotors routinely as an elevator to the wave. At some
places, the tow plane tows them right into the rotor. (Formation flight
into the rotor.) So far, all wings still in place and everybody still
alive. Just make sure you stay well below vB.

No, gliders may transit the rotor but they sure as hell don't like
to fly in it. The best way is to catch the bottom of the wave near the lee
side of whatever terrain is creating it. Some even work on towing or
thermaling into the secondary or tertiary wave and avoid the primary rotor
all together.

N2310D schrieb:

Glider pilots use rotors routinely as an elevator to the wave. At some

No, gliders may transit the rotor but they sure as hell don't like

You're talking to a glider pilot. And the question was not whether we
like it, but wheter the wings stay attached.

Personally, I like the wild ride of a rotor. But I agree that I may be
somewhat untypical.

Stefan

Morgans wrote:

"JGalban" wrote

Which is exactly where you'd expect to find a rotor from the wave
spilling over the mountain. Flying into a rotor is more than just your
average downdraft. If it's strong, you can expect serious pitch and
bank excursions. Simply put, the plane can easily be out of control.
Combine that with IMC and loss of control would probably not be far
behind.

From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat
out with the wings still attached to the plane.

Loss of control? Certainly.

Loss of plane? Perhaps.

Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure.

Jer ? ? ?

There are rotors, then there are ROTORS!

When the winds aloft, at mountain top altitude (~12,000), are
over 25 KN, the local winds are often over 50 KN because of
the effect of the wind flowing down the (constricted) valleys.

So, over 25 KN winds aloft, I choose to stay FAR away from the
rotors... and WATCH where the waves set-up, as the rotors
are under where the waves peak. Now, just because there is not
enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they
don't exist... just that you can not see them.

Winds aloft under 20 KN create a little wave, and some benign (read
FUN) rotors. I am often there in an airplane or glider, touching
the edge of the rotor (no visible moisture), to get lift or sink as
needed. A rotor may be relatively smooth, or VERY rough. It just
depends on the nature of the wind on that day and in that location.

I think it is fun to "go play in the wave" near Leadville, Colorado
and the Ten Mile Range. It is ideally set-up as relatively
north-south, and with a 20 KN wind from the west, it gives an
excellent training situation so that a pilot (with a qualified
mountain instructor on board) can experience the wave. We fly in
the lift, then over to the sink, then go touch the rotor and then
fly back to the lift. DO NOT TRY THIS ON YOUR OWN! I have enough
experience to know where the wave and the rotor are, and always have
several "outs" pre-planned in case I made an incorrect choice.


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer at frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 247 Young Eagles!

Now, just because there is not
enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they
don't exist... just that you can not see them.

Does the presence of water intensify the wave, inasmuch as the
evaporation and condensation of water is also an energy pump?

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
Now, just because there is not
enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they
don't exist... just that you can not see them.

Does the presence of water intensify the wave, inasmuch as the
evaporation and condensation of water is also an energy pump?

An excellent thought, but no, the wind is the driving force and the
prime energy factor.

When evaporation and condensation is the driving force, you get
towering cumulo-nimbus and vertical wind sheer (severe downdrafts).

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer at frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 247 Young Eagles!

Jer wrote :
So, over 25 KN winds aloft, I choose to stay FAR away from the
rotors... and WATCH where the waves set-up, as the rotors
are under where the waves peak. Now, just because there is not
enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they
don't exist... just that you can not see them.

That's the trouble with rotors. Even when there is enough moisture
to show standing lenticular clouds over the peaks, you may have no
indication of where the rotor is on the downwind side of the range.

The only rotor I ever flew into was just after coming out of a pass
in the Alaska range. There were lenticulars over the peaks, so I knew
there would be rotors downwind. I underestimated how far from the
mountains the rotor would be. After flying about 10 miles out of the
pass, I felt it would be safe to make a right turn, parallel to the
mountain range. I was wrong and flew right into the rotor. I spent a
good 5 min. with very little control over my plane. It was a very
upleasant feeling. If that happened in IMC, I wouldn't give big odds
on getting out in one piece.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)


--
JGalban
Posted at www.flight.org

JGalban schrieb:

I spent a good 5 min. with very little control over my plane.

You stayed 5 minutes in the rotor and didn't even think of doing a 90
degrees turn and leave it?

If that happened in IMC,

Rotors, except at their very top, are always VMC.

Stefan