Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:




Not often. For the most, visual approaches are used over ILS
approaches. When cleared for the visual approach, you won't be using
autoland, as you won't be on an ILS approach, regardless of if you join
the localizer and track it. You're still on the visual approach.


That just isn't so. Jet aircraft are required to remain on, or above,
the ILS G/S whether on an ILS approach or on a visual approach. At the
company I worked for, failure to tune and identify the ILS for a visual
approach to an ILS runway was a check-ride bust.

As to autoland, most of them are down in good weather for proficiency
and to maintain certification of the airborne equipment. Autolands can
(and are) even be practiced on visual approaches provided the ILS is
intercepted prior to the PFAF.

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Sam Spade wrote:
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:


Not often. For the most, visual approaches are used over ILS
approaches. When cleared for the visual approach, you won't be using
autoland, as you won't be on an ILS approach, regardless of if you join
the localizer and track it. You're still on the visual approach.


That just isn't so. Jet aircraft are required to remain on, or above,
the ILS G/S whether on an ILS approach or on a visual approach. At the
company I worked for, failure to tune and identify the ILS for a visual
approach to an ILS runway was a check-ride bust.

This would be a company policy, no? Because it could still be
done in any other aircraft outside your company.

BL.
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Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
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A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

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Sam Spade wrote:

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:


Not often. For the most, visual approaches are used over ILS
approaches. When cleared for the visual approach, you won't be using
autoland, as you won't be on an ILS approach, regardless of if you join
the localizer and track it. You're still on the visual approach.


That just isn't so. Jet aircraft are required to remain on, or above,
the ILS G/S whether on an ILS approach or on a visual approach. At the
company I worked for, failure to tune and identify the ILS for a visual
approach to an ILS runway was a check-ride bust.


This would be a company policy, no? Because it could still be
done in any other aircraft outside your company.

You must be another non-pilot?

91.129

A large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway
served by an instrument landing system (ILS), if the airplane is ILS
equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide
slope between the outer marker (or point of interception of glide slope,
if compliance with the applicable distance from clouds criteria requires
interception closer in) and the middle marker; and
(3) An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual
approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the
glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.

It is common to ask any aircraft you need to give you some S turns.
More common at VFR towers.



Sam Spade wrote:
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

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Sam Spade wrote:

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:


Not often. For the most, visual approaches are used over ILS
approaches. When cleared for the visual approach, you won't be using
autoland, as you won't be on an ILS approach, regardless of if you join
the localizer and track it. You're still on the visual approach.


That just isn't so. Jet aircraft are required to remain on, or
above, the ILS G/S whether on an ILS approach or on a visual
approach. At the company I worked for, failure to tune and identify
the ILS for a visual approach to an ILS runway was a check-ride bust.



This would be a company policy, no? Because it could still be
done in any other aircraft outside your company.


You must be another non-pilot?

91.129

A large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway
served by an instrument landing system (ILS), if the airplane is ILS
equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide
slope between the outer marker (or point of interception of glide slope,
if compliance with the applicable distance from clouds criteria requires
interception closer in) and the middle marker; and
(3) An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual
approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the
glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.

Newps wrote:

It is common to ask any aircraft you need to give you some S turns. More
common at VFR towers.

I understand that. But, it is very uncommon at major air carrier
airports because turns quickly compromise operations on adjacent, often
closely spaced runways.

The context of the OP was that type of airport.

Sam Spade writes:

You must be another non-pilot?

91.129

A large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway
served by an instrument landing system (ILS), if the airplane is ILS
equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide
slope between the outer marker (or point of interception of glide slope,
if compliance with the applicable distance from clouds criteria requires
interception closer in) and the middle marker; and
(3) An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual
approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the
glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.

That regulation applies only to Class D airports.

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Mxsmanic wrote:

Sam Spade writes:


You must be another non-pilot?

91.129

A large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway
served by an instrument landing system (ILS), if the airplane is ILS
equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide
slope between the outer marker (or point of interception of glide slope,
if compliance with the applicable distance from clouds criteria requires
interception closer in) and the middle marker; and
(3) An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual
approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the
glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.


That regulation applies only to Class D airports.

Virtually all aircraft that can autoland operate only into Class D airports.

Sam Spade writes:

Virtually all aircraft that can autoland operate only into Class D airports.

That would mean that all the largest and most expensive aircraft
(which are generally equipped with autoland) avoid all the largest and
most complex airports in the United States (which are generally Class
B or Class C), which is exactly the opposite of reality.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Sam Spade writes:


Virtually all aircraft that can autoland operate only into Class D airports.


That would mean that all the largest and most expensive aircraft
(which are generally equipped with autoland) avoid all the largest and
most complex airports in the United States (which are generally Class
B or Class C), which is exactly the opposite of reality.


The discussion was about the 91.129 requirement to remain on or above
the G/S whether VFR or IFR. 91.129 is the language for Class D airports.

91.129 also applies to Class C and B airports as a matter of regulation.

So, I made a technical misstatement, I should have said, "Virtually all
aircraft that can autoland operate only into airports subject to 91.129."

For purposes of the issue there is absolutely no difference whether it
be B, C, or D, because the rules for D apply to B and C.

Sam Spade wrote:


That regulation applies only to Class D airports.

Virtually all aircraft that can autoland operate only into Class D
airports.

Uh, what?