Israel pays the price for buying only Boeing (and not Airbus)

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 3 Jul 2003 02:20:30 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote:
2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
and in many cases in quality.

And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that
are "inferior" and "more expensive". Again, is Israel really that
stupid or are you missing something.

You're wrong. America lost big contract to Israel in India.

Errr...say what? We only recently started selling the more benign
military products to India again after a few years of embargoing
military exports to them (unlike israel, we sometimes try to apply
*some* degree of moralistic control to our sales programs).


Again you continue to spread false arguments. India is heavily
depended on Arab oil and for years embargoed Israel and acted against
it on the UN. Only in 1992 Israel and India established diplomatic
relations for the first time.

All the major Israeli military sales to India happened on the last few
years.

Despite of it, today 50% of the Indian military import is coming from
Israel.



America is
losing big contracts in Europe (UAV's, Spike Anti Tank missilis
instead of the American Javelin for example), South America (Pyhton on
behalf of AIM-9 for example),

"Big contracts"? Yeah, sure...



In Israeli terms its big contracts.

For example:
Armies using the airborne litening pod: US Air Force Reserve's and Air
National Guards for their F-16 Block 25/30/32 Fighting Falcon. Other
air forces operating the system include the US Marine Corps (AV-8B),
Israeli air Force (F-16), Spanish and Italian Navy (AV-8B) and Spanish
air force (F/A-18), German Air Force (Tornado IDS), and the Venezuela
(F-16A/B). The pods were also selected for South Africa's Grippens,
India's Mirage 2000, MiG-27 and Jaguar. The most recent inquiry for
the pods came in March, for a planned procurement of F-16s by Austria.
The pod is also fully integrated in the Eurofighter, F-5E, MiG-21 and
other types. Testing are underway to integrate the pod with Boeing
F-15I operated by the Israel Air Force.


Turkey (Sabra tanks instead of Abrams
tanks),

LOL! Let's wait and see if *any* tanks are procured--and BTW, aren't
those just M60A1 mods? Which is a US tank, right?


I'm glad you're laughing. It's important to know how to laugh after
you lost a contract.
700 million dollars are guaranteed to Israel, and if Turkey will
choose to upgrade 800 tanks, the Israeli industries will get another 2
billions.
But its upgraded M60's so you don't care about the money do you?



South Korea,

Yeah, there was a lot of competition from israel for the F-15K
contract, not to mention the recent Mk 41 VLS selection by the
ROKN...not.

Taiwan,

Taiwan being that country that is pursuing additional US weapons
deliveries as fast as they can get approval, right?

Eastern Europe. Israel is also leading in
the market of upgrading soviet era systems using advanced technology
etc.

Wow, now *that* is gonna define a true market leader, right?

Nope, Israel with an economy of one-hundredth smaller than the
American economy is not intended to be THE market leader, but we are a
major player and growing while the market is shrinking. This is
despite the fact that we are competing against heavily subsidized
American industries.


Can't
build much yourselves, but golly you are good at piling onto everybody
elses efforts...





Brooks


Sorry, wasn't clear, I was referring to contracts within Israel.
Things like the M-16 having displaced the damn good Galil simply
because the M-16 could be paid for out of the aid (or so it appeared
to this humble Brit).

But since we seem to agree that the aid doesn't help Israel, we can
leave it there.

(Quant) wrote in message om...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 3 Jul 2003 02:20:30 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

Peter Kemp wrote in message . ..
On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote:
2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily
subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price
and in many cases in quality.

And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that
are "inferior" and "more expensive". Again, is Israel really that
stupid or are you missing something.

You're wrong. America lost big contract to Israel in India.

Errr...say what? We only recently started selling the more benign
military products to India again after a few years of embargoing
military exports to them (unlike israel, we sometimes try to apply
*some* degree of moralistic control to our sales programs).


Again you continue to spread false arguments. India is heavily
depended on Arab oil and for years embargoed Israel and acted against
it on the UN. Only in 1992 Israel and India established diplomatic
relations for the first time.

And maintained them while others were trying to limit arms deliveries
in light of their nuclear testing. That a great thing to be proud of.


All the major Israeli military sales to India happened on the last few
years.

Despite of it, today 50% of the Indian military import is coming from
Israel.

Ummm...you seem to be *ignoring* the question--WHAT great contract did
the US lose to israel? Being as we did not allow our companies to even
BID on Indian defense contracts for quite a few years, it will be
interesting to see your answer--come on, you made the claim, now back
it up.




America is
losing big contracts in Europe (UAV's, Spike Anti Tank missilis
instead of the American Javelin for example), South America (Pyhton on
behalf of AIM-9 for example),

"Big contracts"? Yeah, sure...



In Israeli terms its big contracts.

For example:
Armies using the airborne litening pod: US Air Force Reserve's and Air
National Guards for their F-16 Block 25/30/32 Fighting Falcon. Other
air forces operating the system include the US Marine Corps (AV-8B),
Israeli air Force (F-16), Spanish and Italian Navy (AV-8B) and Spanish
air force (F/A-18), German Air Force (Tornado IDS), and the Venezuela
(F-16A/B). The pods were also selected for South Africa's Grippens,
India's Mirage 2000, MiG-27 and Jaguar. The most recent inquiry for
the pods came in March, for a planned procurement of F-16s by Austria.
The pod is also fully integrated in the Eurofighter, F-5E, MiG-21 and
other types. Testing are underway to integrate the pod with Boeing
F-15I operated by the Israel Air Force.

Great. You have developed a good pod (which IIRC the US partner firm
has improved). Now, can you demonstrate any other wonderful bids you
have taken home against US competition?



Turkey (Sabra tanks instead of Abrams
tanks),

LOL! Let's wait and see if *any* tanks are procured--and BTW, aren't
those just M60A1 mods? Which is a US tank, right?


I'm glad you're laughing. It's important to know how to laugh after
you lost a contract.
700 million dollars are guaranteed to Israel, and if Turkey will
choose to upgrade 800 tanks, the Israeli industries will get another 2
billions.
But its upgraded M60's so you don't care about the money do you?

So you are crowing that they chose to upgrade old US products because
they could not afford to purchase their first choice (the M1 series)?
Israel gets a "leftovers" upgrade contract (which IIRC is still in
question as to whether or not the program will actually come to
fruition due to Turkish budgeting problems). Wow.




South Korea,

Yeah, there was a lot of competition from israel for the F-15K
contract, not to mention the recent Mk 41 VLS selection by the
ROKN...not.

So you can't show where Israel beat out the US in direct competition
in the ROK either. Why am I not surprised?



Taiwan,

Taiwan being that country that is pursuing additional US weapons
deliveries as fast as they can get approval, right?

Repeat comment from above, insert "Taiwan" in place of ROK.


Eastern Europe. Israel is also leading in
the market of upgrading soviet era systems using advanced technology
etc.

Wow, now *that* is gonna define a true market leader, right?

Nope, Israel with an economy of one-hundredth smaller than the
American economy is not intended to be THE market leader, but we are a
major player and growing while the market is shrinking. This is
despite the fact that we are competing against heavily subsidized
American industries.

One last time--show us where you are competing directly against US
firms. Surely not in the PRC with your Phalcon attempts, not to
mention falling all over yourselves trying to sell that radar for the
J-10 fighter, and the helmet mounted sight, and the advanced
Pythons...

Brooks



Can't
build much yourselves, but golly you are good at piling onto everybody
elses efforts...





Brooks


Sorry, wasn't clear, I was referring to contracts within Israel.
Things like the M-16 having displaced the damn good Galil simply
because the M-16 could be paid for out of the aid (or so it appeared
to this humble Brit).

But since we seem to agree that the aid doesn't help Israel, we can
leave it there.