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(Quant) wrote in message om...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com... Peter Kemp wrote in message . .. On 3 Jul 2003 02:20:30 -0700, (Quant) wrote: Peter Kemp wrote in message . .. On 2 Jul 2003 17:45:33 -0700, (Quant) wrote: 2. Despite the fact that the American industries are heavily subsidized they can't compete against the Israeli industries in price and in many cases in quality. And yet the Israel products repeatedly lose out to US products that are "inferior" and "more expensive". Again, is Israel really that stupid or are you missing something. You're wrong. America lost big contract to Israel in India. Errr...say what? We only recently started selling the more benign military products to India again after a few years of embargoing military exports to them (unlike israel, we sometimes try to apply *some* degree of moralistic control to our sales programs). Again you continue to spread false arguments. India is heavily depended on Arab oil and for years embargoed Israel and acted against it on the UN. Only in 1992 Israel and India established diplomatic relations for the first time. And maintained them while others were trying to limit arms deliveries in light of their nuclear testing. That a great thing to be proud of. All the major Israeli military sales to India happened on the last few years. Despite of it, today 50% of the Indian military import is coming from Israel. Ummm...you seem to be *ignoring* the question--WHAT great contract did the US lose to israel? Being as we did not allow our companies to even BID on Indian defense contracts for quite a few years, it will be interesting to see your answer--come on, you made the claim, now back it up. America is losing big contracts in Europe (UAV's, Spike Anti Tank missilis instead of the American Javelin for example), South America (Pyhton on behalf of AIM-9 for example), "Big contracts"? Yeah, sure... In Israeli terms its big contracts. For example: Armies using the airborne litening pod: US Air Force Reserve's and Air National Guards for their F-16 Block 25/30/32 Fighting Falcon. Other air forces operating the system include the US Marine Corps (AV-8B), Israeli air Force (F-16), Spanish and Italian Navy (AV-8B) and Spanish air force (F/A-18), German Air Force (Tornado IDS), and the Venezuela (F-16A/B). The pods were also selected for South Africa's Grippens, India's Mirage 2000, MiG-27 and Jaguar. The most recent inquiry for the pods came in March, for a planned procurement of F-16s by Austria. The pod is also fully integrated in the Eurofighter, F-5E, MiG-21 and other types. Testing are underway to integrate the pod with Boeing F-15I operated by the Israel Air Force. Great. You have developed a good pod (which IIRC the US partner firm has improved). Now, can you demonstrate any other wonderful bids you have taken home against US competition? Turkey (Sabra tanks instead of Abrams tanks), LOL! Let's wait and see if *any* tanks are procured--and BTW, aren't those just M60A1 mods? Which is a US tank, right? I'm glad you're laughing. It's important to know how to laugh after you lost a contract. 700 million dollars are guaranteed to Israel, and if Turkey will choose to upgrade 800 tanks, the Israeli industries will get another 2 billions. But its upgraded M60's so you don't care about the money do you? So you are crowing that they chose to upgrade old US products because they could not afford to purchase their first choice (the M1 series)? Israel gets a "leftovers" upgrade contract (which IIRC is still in question as to whether or not the program will actually come to fruition due to Turkish budgeting problems). Wow. South Korea, Yeah, there was a lot of competition from israel for the F-15K contract, not to mention the recent Mk 41 VLS selection by the ROKN...not. So you can't show where Israel beat out the US in direct competition in the ROK either. Why am I not surprised? Taiwan, Taiwan being that country that is pursuing additional US weapons deliveries as fast as they can get approval, right? Repeat comment from above, insert "Taiwan" in place of ROK. Eastern Europe. Israel is also leading in the market of upgrading soviet era systems using advanced technology etc. Wow, now *that* is gonna define a true market leader, right? Nope, Israel with an economy of one-hundredth smaller than the American economy is not intended to be THE market leader, but we are a major player and growing while the market is shrinking. This is despite the fact that we are competing against heavily subsidized American industries. One last time--show us where you are competing directly against US firms. Surely not in the PRC with your Phalcon attempts, not to mention falling all over yourselves trying to sell that radar for the J-10 fighter, and the helmet mounted sight, and the advanced Pythons... Brooks Can't build much yourselves, but golly you are good at piling onto everybody elses efforts... Brooks Sorry, wasn't clear, I was referring to contracts within Israel. Things like the M-16 having displaced the damn good Galil simply because the M-16 could be paid for out of the aid (or so it appeared to this humble Brit). But since we seem to agree that the aid doesn't help Israel, we can leave it there. |
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