Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.

Hi Jay,
Yes you have a good understanding of the issue now. All the statements you
made are right on.
The air is pouring up though the fine mesh duct on the plank on the
co-pilots side of the bird.
As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
vent on the pilots side.

The external shroud is positioned as a venturi rather than a scoop !
The wings are in the normal place and no metal has gone missing on the
underside of the plane :-)
BTW this is the first time since owning the Archer that we have had an
overhead duct without holes in it !

Piper Chat ? Can you let me have a link?

Thanks

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ps.com...
During December I had a new leather interior fitted, so the fit of the
seat
board against the wall panels is now very snug.
But still the howling draft pours through the right side seat board vent.
I wonder why no draft out of the left seat board vent ?
That might be the key to solving the issue !

Wow, that's a weird one, Roy.

So the draft is coming through that fine mesh that buts up against the
sidewalls, right next to the rear bucket seats? But only on the
*co-pilots* side?

There is nothing underneath that plank that should be able to direct
the air in any one direction -- it's just an open cavity beneath that
big hunk of plywood. Why the air would only come out the RIGHT
mesh/vent/opening is truly a mystery.

I suppose you could try duct taping a piece of cardboard to the bottom
side of the mesh, and go fly it? If nothing else, you'd be able to
see if (a) the draft stops, and (b) if it now pours out the LEFT
mesh/duct.

You sure that the little shroud around the bottom vent hole isn't
installed backwards, turning it into ram-air instead of venturi?

You might post this on Cherokee Chat, the Cherokee Pilots Association's
website. If someone there doesn't know the answer, it's either
unanswerable, or you truly are a pioneer in this particular problem.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

As far as I can tell their is no draft coming out of the fine mesh plank
vent on the pilots side.

That is so weird. Is there something blocking *that* opening? I just
can't imagine what's causing that kind of strong air-flow.

The Cherokee Chat is the Cherokee Pilot's Association on-line chat
room. You've got to be a member, but it's worth every penny to join,
and then some. See them he http://www.piperowner.com/

With over 4000 Cherokee owners in the organization, you can always
count on getting an answer on ANY Cherokee question you might have.
And they have the BEST fly-in of the year. See info on that he
http://cherokeeflyin.com/

We've attended the last four, and intend to go again this year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Looking at my ARCHER II manual...

The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
blower in between.

The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right sides
join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left side is
creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side causing air
to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow well
pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more water
up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet opening
on the bottom of the plane?
Jim

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Good point there Jim,
Unfortunately both of the fine mesh vents in the rear seat plank are not
connected to ducts at all.
They just vent cabin air to the area under the seat plank and from there the
stale air should vent via the central belly hole.
But you may have hit on a point.
Although the vents are not ducted I will check if I can see how the air
might flow under the plank.

Thanks
Roy



"Jim" wrote in message
...

Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right
sides
join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left side is
creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side causing air
to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow well
pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more water
up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet
opening
on the bottom of the plane?
Jim

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Could it be possible that the cabin roof vent from the tail has an
opening to the empennage and that pressurizes the empennage when you
close the flapper to the overhead outlets? There would also have to be
something blocking the wall grille on the left side of the cabin. The
impact air at cruise may be at high enough volume and pressure to
overwhelm the belly exit vent and the residual volume flows backward
into the cabin via the right wall grille.

Just a thought based on what I've seen in this thread so far.



-----Original Message-----
From: Roy N5804F ]
Posted At: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:28 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
Conversation: Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.
Subject: Piper Archer II Air Leak Problem by Back Seat.


Good point there Jim,
Unfortunately both of the fine mesh vents in the rear seat plank are
not
connected to ducts at all.
They just vent cabin air to the area under the seat plank and from
there
the
stale air should vent via the central belly hole.
But you may have hit on a point.
Although the vents are not ducted I will check if I can see how the
air
might flow under the plank.

Thanks
Roy



"Jim" wrote in message
...

Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and
right
sides
join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?
Could it be shaped so that the rushing air escaping from the left
side
is
creating a low pressure area inside the tube on the right side
causing
air
to enter the exit port and flow into the right side? Like a shallow
well
pump forces some water down the well through a venturi to force more
water
up the well. What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet
opening
on the bottom of the plane?
Jim

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening
with
the
blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee.
This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out
a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi
in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out
the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming
OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

("Jim" wrote)
Does anybody know the shape of the connection where the left and right
sides join before exiting the outlet? "T"? "Y"?

What happens if you put some duct tape over the outlet opening on the
bottom of the plane?


How about using both setting on a shop-vac? ...and some ribbon?

Since work has recently been done, I suspect a disconnected duct piece
somewhere.


Montblack
http://www.aem.umn.edu/outreach/Baseball_Launcher/startrib1.pdf
The HHH Metrodome's vents work just fine. g

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/07/26/metrodome_winds_ap/
Same air vent story

Coming in through the cabin outflow/exhaust outlet? That is strange.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
The outboard floor vents are connected to the wing root openings.

The heater vents run along the center tunnel between the seats.

The overhead vents connect to the vertical stabilizer opening with the
blower in between.

Yep, but he's not talking about ANY of those vents.

There is a fine grating piece that fits alongside the rear seats,
between the seat and the outer wall of this model of Cherokee. This
grating allows air to flow freely the cabin and the under-seat
compartment (where the battery is on some Cherokees), and then out a
hole in the bottom of the plane.

Think "flow-through ventilation", circa Pontiac 1968.

That hole has a shroud around it that makes it act like a venturi in
flight, actually SUCKING the air through those mesh grates, and out the
bottom of the plane. For some reason, the OP is getting air coming OUT
of that grating -- only on the right side -- which is seemingly
impossible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



Jay has it correct.
I happen to be a pretty capable mechanical engineer and this issue has me
totally foxed.
The airplane is in the shop right now and I have asked them to pull the rear
seat plank out again.
As soon as they do that I am going to have another look and also check why
air is not coming out of the mesh grill on the other side of the seat plank.
Thinking about it, they also fitted new seals to the other 4 floor ducts,
which also now shut off very nicely.
Perhaps she is just too tight :-)

Roy