Safety pilot "flight time"

Jim Macklin wrote:
Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they are
not actually sole manipulator of the controls.

Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting as
PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

Anyway, it's your logbook, you can write anything you want to in it.
It's only when you want to use your logbook as evidence of experience
for a job or rating application that it matters.

Personally, I don't log time I spend as a safety pilot, but you
certainly may, either as

[PIC if you are acting as PIC], or as

[SIC if you're not PIC but a required crewmember since the PIC is using
a view restricting device].

Dave Butler wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote:
Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they are not
actually sole manipulator of the controls.

Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting as
PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.
Incorrect.

61.56 is pretty clear. The instructor doesn't need to act as PIC
to log PIC, just to give instruction.

An ATP can log PIC when acting as PIC.

A private or better pilot can log PIC time when acting as PIC
in an operation requiring more than one pilot under the aircraft
certification or under the rules under which the flight was conducted.

Now the latter was probably done with Part 135/121 operations in
mind, but the FAA has affirmed that simulated instrument flight
IS indeed a more-than-one-pilot-required operation.

Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting as
PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

Incorrect.

Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements, but, assuming you
meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts my statement.


61.56 is pretty clear. The instructor doesn't need to act as PIC
to log PIC, just to give instruction.

Did you mean 61.51?


An ATP can log PIC when acting as PIC.

A private or better pilot can log PIC time when acting as PIC
in an operation requiring more than one pilot under the aircraft
certification or under the rules under which the flight was conducted.

Now the latter was probably done with Part 135/121 operations in
mind, but the FAA has affirmed that simulated instrument flight
IS indeed a more-than-one-pilot-required operation.

Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting as
PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

Incorrect.

Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements, but, assuming you
meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts my statement.

Where in 61.51 does it say anybody (instructor or not) can log PIC
because they are acting as PIC? There are two specific instances
(ATP and multipilot operation). Otherwise you have to meet one of
the other requirements.

Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either
acting as PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

Incorrect.

Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements, but, assuming
you meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts my
statement.

Where in 61.51 does it say anybody (instructor or not) can log PIC
because they are acting as PIC? There are two specific instances
(ATP and multipilot operation). Otherwise you have to meet one of
the other requirements.

[(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that
person-- ...

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot,
is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the ... regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

I assumed we were talking about safety pilot for a pilot who is wearing
a view-restricting device, so the flight falls under the "more than one
pilot required" clause.

Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting
as PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

Incorrect.

Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements, but, assuming
you meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts my
statement.

Where in 61.51 does it say anybody (instructor or not) can log PIC
because they are acting as PIC? There are two specific instances
(ATP and multipilot operation). Otherwise you have to meet one of the
other requirements.

[(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that
person-- ...

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot,
is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the ... regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

I assumed we were talking about safety pilot for a pilot who is wearing
a view-restricting device, so the flight falls under the "more than one
pilot required" clause.


Your quote said "Any time you are either acting as PIC ..."

ATP not operating under FAR 135 or 121 actually can log PIC
the same as any commercial pilot, the must be flying. But
under 121, an ATP assigned as Captain [PIC] can log PIC
while sleeping in the crew bunk room.

Also, ATPs without a CFI can only instruct under 135 or 121
in operations called for in those parts.



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
| Dave Butler wrote:
| Ron Natalie wrote:
| Dave Butler wrote:
|
| You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are
either acting as
| PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| Incorrect.
|
| Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements,
but, assuming you
| meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts
my statement.
|
| Where in 61.51 does it say anybody (instructor or not) can
log PIC
| because they are acting as PIC? There are two specific
instances
| (ATP and multipilot operation). Otherwise you have to
meet one of
| the other requirements.

A safety pilot just looks out the window and can only log
SIC, they are a required crewmember/observer, but rarely
actually even touch the controls, almost never sole
manipulator.


"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they
are
| not actually sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.
|
| You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are
either acting as
| PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| Anyway, it's your logbook, you can write anything you want
to in it.
| It's only when you want to use your logbook as evidence of
experience
| for a job or rating application that it matters.
|
| Personally, I don't log time I spend as a safety pilot,
but you
| certainly may, either as
|
| [PIC if you are acting as PIC], or as
|
| [SIC if you're not PIC but a required crewmember since the
PIC is using
| a view restricting device].

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:15:52 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:

A safety pilot just looks out the window and can only log
SIC, they are a required crewmember/observer, but rarely
actually even touch the controls, almost never sole
manipulator.

If they are required, and acting as PIC, there is no requirement for them
to be the sole manipulator.

This is according to both FAA regulations and written interpretations from
the FAA lawyers.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:20:51 -0500, Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting as
PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

For Part 91 flights, the non-instructor must be PIC on a flight which
requires two flight crew members if he is not the sole manipulator.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)