ORCA lower than MEA?

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.


That's what I thought.

When you write about airways below the peaks -- obviously there are many of
those. But what I wondered, specifically, if there were MEA's lower than
the 91.177 minimum required IFR altitude (2,000' above the highest
obstruction within four miles of your flight path).

So far as the requiremnt (for pilots) for VFR altitudes, that would only
apply at 3000' or more AGL. So would probably not be applicable here.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:


When you write about airways below the peaks -- obviously there are many of
those. But what I wondered, specifically, if there were MEA's lower than
the 91.177 minimum required IFR altitude (2,000' above the highest
obstruction within four miles of your flight path).



No, the MEA would follow the 2000 foot rule over the valley floor.



So far as the requiremnt (for pilots) for VFR altitudes, that would only
apply at 3000' or more AGL. So would probably not be applicable here.

Required altitudes for pilots flying OTP are the pilots problem. I
simply don't care.

Newps wrote:


Required altitudes for pilots flying OTP are the pilots problem. I
simply don't care.



That sums it up. In the final analysis, it is the pilots' responsiblity
to obey FARs and directive information in the AIM.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.



That's what I thought.

Both of you need to read the AIM 4-4-7. It doesn't say, "Unless
otherwise authorized by ATC." ;-)

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:27:42 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.



That's what I thought.

Both of you need to read the AIM 4-4-7. It doesn't say, "Unless
otherwise authorized by ATC." ;-)

4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:07:41 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."

True, but it is ATC's responsibility to issue me a clearance of "VFR on top
at or above nnnn"
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:07:41 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."


True, but it is ATC's responsibility to issue me a clearance of "VFR on top
at or above nnnn"
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)


I haven't done it in a long time myself. I did have LA Center a couple
times way back when say "Unable to approve VFR on top at the requested
altitude.."

So, since On Top is an amendment to an IFR clearance I think they can
make whatever they choose out of their responsibilities with on On-Top
amendment to your IFR clearance.

Some controllers or facilities, particularly a mountain-area center,
might reasonably be very unconfortable with the IFR flight plan aspect
of the aircraft being below MIA or MEA.

Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?



We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.


You may not care, but that doesn't change the position of FAA
headquarters (note "minimum IFR altitudes in No 3).

From the AIM:

e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to
“maintain VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions” pilots on IFR flight plans
must:

1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
91.159.

2. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in 14
CFR Section 91.155 (Basic VFR Weather Minimums).

3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this
flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio
communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.