ORCA lower than MEA?

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.



That's what I thought.

Both of you need to read the AIM 4-4-7. It doesn't say, "Unless
otherwise authorized by ATC." ;-)

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:27:42 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.



That's what I thought.

Both of you need to read the AIM 4-4-7. It doesn't say, "Unless
otherwise authorized by ATC." ;-)

4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:07:41 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."

True, but it is ATC's responsibility to issue me a clearance of "VFR on top
at or above nnnn"
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:07:41 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



4-4-7 does not appear to prohibit (for the pilot) operations at 91.177
compliant altitudes. If ATC does not issue me an altitude restriction,
then 91.177 would apply.

I would agree. But, few pilots can figure that one out.

Then, if I am with a Center that is trained to take exception with
altitudes below the MEA or MIA, then they will also take exception with
my 91.177 selection, if it is "too low."


True, but it is ATC's responsibility to issue me a clearance of "VFR on top
at or above nnnn"
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)


I haven't done it in a long time myself. I did have LA Center a couple
times way back when say "Unable to approve VFR on top at the requested
altitude.."

So, since On Top is an amendment to an IFR clearance I think they can
make whatever they choose out of their responsibilities with on On-Top
amendment to your IFR clearance.

Some controllers or facilities, particularly a mountain-area center,
might reasonably be very unconfortable with the IFR flight plan aspect
of the aircraft being below MIA or MEA.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:09:40 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:




I haven't done it in a long time myself. I did have LA Center a couple
times way back when say "Unable to approve VFR on top at the requested
altitude.."

So, since On Top is an amendment to an IFR clearance I think they can
make whatever they choose out of their responsibilities with on On-Top
amendment to your IFR clearance.

Some controllers or facilities, particularly a mountain-area center,
might reasonably be very unconfortable with the IFR flight plan aspect
of the aircraft being below MIA or MEA.

No doubt.

Here in the NE I've only used OTP to get through an overcast.

And my usual clearance would be basically out of the 7110.65. Something
like:

CLIMB TO AND REPORT REACHING VFR-ON-TOP,
NO TOPS REPORTS.
IF NOT ON TOP AT 7000', MAINTAIN 7000', AND ADVISE.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:09:40 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:




I haven't done it in a long time myself. I did have LA Center a couple
times way back when say "Unable to approve VFR on top at the requested
altitude.."

So, since On Top is an amendment to an IFR clearance I think they can
make whatever they choose out of their responsibilities with on On-Top
amendment to your IFR clearance.

Some controllers or facilities, particularly a mountain-area center,
might reasonably be very unconfortable with the IFR flight plan aspect
of the aircraft being below MIA or MEA.


No doubt.

Here in the NE I've only used OTP to get through an overcast.

And my usual clearance would be basically out of the 7110.65. Something
like:

CLIMB TO AND REPORT REACHING VFR-ON-TOP,
NO TOPS REPORTS.
IF NOT ON TOP AT 7000', MAINTAIN 7000', AND ADVISE.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Picking at nits, that is a clearance to on top, as opposed to modifying
an en route IFR clearance from an assigned altitude to en route on top.
In the former you are excepted to cancel reaching on top. What you do
is a very common practice around here in terminal airspace, and always
has an altitude assignment at, or above MVA. I suppose it could be done
with a center at an airport where they provide terminal service. Never
done that (always files a full en route IFR flight plan out of such
airports; PRB coming to mind where I have done that a lot.