Cloud Flying - Experimental

On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

I don't think that you want to try this in a 25m+ glider.

"David Starer" DavidAtStarerDotCoDotUk wrote in message
...
The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well
be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem
if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of
the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

wrote:

Funny how pure glider pilots

"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

How much thermalling near stall do they do ;) ? And isn't flight into
IMC where lots of those single engine planes have the most problems?

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention. I've read
many of the stories from the older Sailplane and Gliding magazines about
cloud flight back before GPS, and it sounded like a quite an adventure.
I particularly enjoyed the ones that had sentences like this: "As I
exited the cloud at 14,000', I looked down to see nothing but water...".

Usually meant the English Channel. Not a happy place in a 30:1 glider
with iced up wings.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

yea sorry about that, you know what i meant.

seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

Yep.

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Well this is where cloud flying has gotten its bad rap. Turbulence is
a given, its going to be there in almost any type of soaring you do.
Icing is avoidable, Lightning is avoidable. Im not talking about
using a Tstorm to get diamond altitude a la Piggot. Ive got a
stronger self preservation gene than that. Hypoxia is avoidable.
There is a way to be smart about this type of operation.
Unfortunately it seems that the ones who perhaps havent been quite so
much have spoiled it for the rest of us.

Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

How much thermalling near stall do they do ;) ? And isn't flight into
IMC where lots of those single engine planes have the most problems?

haha very clever. This goes back to being smart about the operation.
typical flying speeds in cloud are higher, in fact much higher than
normal thermalling speeds. for one thing the lift is so much stronger
that the low speed really isnt necessary. second, and most
importantly it gives you a good cushion on stalling. And the power
traffic regularly slows to within 1.3 times the stall speed on
approach. Id say that most of the problems "those single engine
planes" encounter during IMC are pilot problems, not airplane.

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention. I've read
many of the stories from the older Sailplane and Gliding magazines about
cloud flight back before GPS, and it sounded like a quite an adventure.
I particularly enjoyed the ones that had sentences like this: "As I
exited the cloud at 14,000', I looked down to see nothing but water...".

Usually meant the English Channel. Not a happy place in a 30:1 glider
with iced up wings.

Can't wait to meet you there.

Tony
2000 miles from any water that a ice cube couldnt glide across

On Feb 5, 10:50 pm, wrote:
"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

yea sorry about that, you know what i meant.



seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

Yep.

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Well this is where cloud flying has gotten its bad rap. Turbulence is
a given, its going to be there in almost any type of soaring you do.
Icing is avoidable, Lightning is avoidable. Im not talking about
using a Tstorm to get diamond altitude a la Piggot. Ive got a
stronger self preservation gene than that. Hypoxia is avoidable.
There is a way to be smart about this type of operation.
Unfortunately it seems that the ones who perhaps havent been quite so
much have spoiled it for the rest of us.




You have to remember that Eric is to soaring what the little old lady
driving in the short 405themovie is when you are replying to him

http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...l/52Co0025.JPG
http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...ull/Sc0021.JPG

Let the flame wars begin LOL

Roll on summer...

Cheers

Al

wrote:


You have to remember that Eric is to soaring what the little old lady
driving in the short 405themovie is when you are replying to him

http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...l/52Co0025.JPG
http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...ull/Sc0021.JPG

Let the flame wars begin LOL

Nonsense! I would never give anyone the finger, no matter how richly
they deserved it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

It's hard to have an informed discussion between instrument rated pilots and
non-instrument rated pilots since the difference in training is huge.
Getting an instrument rating is probably the hardest rating to get. I've
been thold that the ATP is easier. I'm not dissing non-instrument rated
pilots, just pointing out that there's a LOT of very specialized training
involved in getting an instrument ticket.

Most people taking instrument training have thought to themselves, "This is
too hard - humans just aren't supposed to be able to do this". Somehow,
most persevere and get their ratings. Eventually, instrument attitude
flying is learned to the point it feels as nautral as blue sky VMC.
Actually, I know pilots who feel very uncomfortable flying visually.
(Instrument pilot sits in glider and asks, "Where the hell is the attitude
indicator?" Glider pilot replies, "We use the big one in the sky")

The point is that flight under IMC can be done safely by a well trained
pilot. It's not the equipment, it's the pilot that makes the difference.
Almost all accidents under IMC are pilots flying perfectly good aircraft
into the ground. They even have a name for it - CFIT (Controled Flight Into
Terrain) Aircraft and the installed instruments have little to do with it
as long as the pilot knows how to use what he has - and knows his own
limitations.

Bill Daniels


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:GlSxh.4319$_d4.3848@trndny05...
wrote:

Funny how pure glider pilots

"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

How much thermalling near stall do they do ;) ? And isn't flight into IMC
where lots of those single engine planes have the most problems?

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention. I've read
many of the stories from the older Sailplane and Gliding magazines about
cloud flight back before GPS, and it sounded like a quite an adventure. I
particularly enjoyed the ones that had sentences like this: "As I exited
the cloud at 14,000', I looked down to see nothing but water...".

Usually meant the English Channel. Not a happy place in a 30:1 glider with
iced up wings.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

In Britain - where cloud flying is common - you radio your position
and intentions on a set frequency before entering a cloud. (You're
also required to be wearing a parachute.)

As an aside older British gliders were required to have speed-limiting
airbrakes, so if it all went pear-shaped you could open the airbrakes
and eventually fall out the bottom of the cloud at a reasonable
airspeed. My understanding is that more modern gliders have airbrakes
that only limit the speed in a 45deg dive.


Dan