Best Fighter For It's Time

"Tom Cooper" waxed lyrical
:

Besides, the total combat score for the F-14 is also (at least) two
times better than that of the F-15.


Errr. . as I understood the Tomcat's score stands at something in
the high forties - something like 5 from the US Navy and forty-odd
from Iran, whilst the F-15's stands at something over 100, 30
something for the USAF, a few (four? two Phantom and two Mirage
F-1) for the Saudis and the balance with the IAF, mainly over the
Bekaa in 1982. So as far as I'm aware the F-14's score is something
less than half the F-15's (unless the Tomcat scored a quiet 150
somewhere to give it a ratio of (and I quote) "(at least) two times
better than that of the F-15" Could you cite sources for your claim
please? Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, certainly
wouldn't be the last!

--
--------
Regards
Drewe
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

Drewe Manton wrote in message .4...
"Tom Cooper" waxed lyrical
:

Besides, the total combat score for the F-14 is also (at least) two
times better than that of the F-15.


Errr. . as I understood the Tomcat's score stands at something in
the high forties - something like 5 from the US Navy and forty-odd
from Iran, whilst the F-15's stands at something over 100, 30
something for the USAF, a few (four? two Phantom and two Mirage
F-1) for the Saudis and the balance with the IAF, mainly over the
Bekaa in 1982. So as far as I'm aware the F-14's score is something
less than half the F-15's (unless the Tomcat scored a quiet 150
somewhere to give it a ratio of (and I quote) "(at least) two times
better than that of the F-15" Could you cite sources for your claim
please? Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, certainly
wouldn't be the last!

Err... no! ;-))
The story with 40 kills is based on the Mullahs taking away something
like 70% of IRIAF's air-to-air kills and crediting them to the IRGC
air-defence units after the war with Iraq.

IRIAF F-14's score goes into 120+, with some 30 probables more (so,
yes, it's very likely around 150) - for three confirmed losses, plus
two LARAF Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and an Iraqi Mi-8 shot down by USN
F-14s. This is opposed by something like 70 US and IDF/AF kills scored
by F-15s, in exchange for two probable losses. BTW, IRIAF F-4s scored
over 100 too; F-5E/F's score shouldn't be too far either.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Err... no! ;-))
The story with 40 kills is based on the Mullahs taking away something
like 70% of IRIAF's air-to-air kills and crediting them to the IRGC
air-defence units after the war with Iraq.

IRIAF F-14's score goes into 120+, with some 30 probables more (so,
yes, it's very likely around 150) - for three confirmed losses, plus
two LARAF Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and an Iraqi Mi-8 shot down by USN
F-14s. This is opposed by something like 70 US and IDF/AF kills scored
by F-15s, in exchange for two probable losses. BTW, IRIAF F-4s scored
over 100 too; F-5E/F's score shouldn't be too far either.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

I will probably buy your book one day but I have to ask what kind of evidence
did you get to see in order to validate these claims? Have Iranian claims been
verified against admitted Iraqi losses? Given the secretive nature of both
regimes I have to wonder how accurate these fiqures really are. Does any other
nation confirm the Iranian victory claims? Does the Iraqi order of battle and
other sources really support 300 plus losses over 8 years? What do/did the
Soviets have to say about the exchange ratio? How many Iraqi wrecks can be
accounted for in Iran?

John Dupre'

I will probably buy your book one day but I have to ask what kind of
evidence
did you get to see in order to validate these claims? Have Iranian claims
been
verified against admitted Iraqi losses? Given the secretive nature of
both
regimes I have to wonder how accurate these fiqures really are. Does any
other
nation confirm the Iranian victory claims? Does the Iraqi order of battle
and
other sources really support 300 plus losses over 8 years? What do/did
the
Soviets have to say about the exchange ratio? How many Iraqi wrecks can
be
accounted for in Iran?

Fair questions, John.

1.) What kind of evidence is there?
Actually multiple: starting from eyewitness accounts, via comprehensive
official records (including gun-camera shots, photographs of the wreckage
etc.), down to intel reports (via FOIA inquiries). In over 80% of the cases
we were very well able to cross-check the infos.

If you're not sure should you purchase a copy or not, try to get the volume
104 of the AirEnthusiast (published March this year), to see the article
"Fire in the Hills", which is detailing the fighting during only two smaller
Iranian offensives, undertaken October-November 1982. Examining the claims
for the "Mi-24 shot down an F-4 Phantom", or an "F-14 shot down six Iraqis
within few seconds" (which can be found also on this NG) to the last detail,
it's perfectly illustrating the wealth of sources we were able to use, and
the way it was possible to cross-examine the evidence.

2.) Were claims verified against admitted losses?
Against those officially admitted by Iraqi authorities: no. That is
impossible to do, as these barelly admited 20 own aircraft as lost during
the war, while issurd alone over 100 claims for Iranian F-14 shot down...

Otherwise, see point 1: in fact, we're better able to confirm what we're
talking about than most of those who published anything about the Israelis.

3.) Does any other nation confirm Iranian claims?
Nation: not. Service: yes (several of them).

4.) Does the Iraqi order of battle and other sources really support 300 plus
losses over 8 years?
In fact, they support a loss of something like 450 aircraft and approx 150
helicopters.

5.) What do/did the Soviets have to say about the exchange ratio?
Except that they were losing their own planes and pilots sent to Iraq for
testing as well, they are - in general - either as quiet as a grave or
babbling nonsence (the Archives of the Defence Ministry, however, remain
closed when it comes to this topic). Nevertheless, we've found several of
them (and few people from some other countries: East Germans, Poles etc.)
who were there - and ready to talk - too.

6.) How many Iraqi wrecks can be accounted for in Iran?
Don't know: the research is far (very far) from being over, but official
records (most of these containing photographs) exist for 250-300. Over 100
Iraqi planes were shot down over the Persian Gulf, and others were lost
elsewhere, where their wreckage could not be found.

I hope that helps.


Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

I will probably buy your book one day but I have to ask what kind of
evidence
did you get to see in order to validate these claims?

1.) What kind of evidence is there?
Actually multiple: starting from eyewitness accounts, via comprehensive
official records (including gun-camera shots, photographs of the wreckage
etc.), down to intel reports (via FOIA inquiries). In over 80% of the cases
we were very well able to cross-check the infos.

3.) Does any other nation confirm Iranian claims?
Nation: not. Service: yes (several of them).


4.) Does the Iraqi order of battle and other sources really support 300 plus
losses over 8 years?
In fact, they support a loss of something like 450 aircraft and approx 150
helicopters.


Lots of other stuff in reply as well.

Thanks so much for clarifying those points. Your book now goes close to the top
of my wish list. Fascinating stuff.

Any list or account of fighter or helicopter aces?

John Dupre'

"JDupre5762" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

snip

Any list or account of fighter or helicopter aces?

One of the problems with research to this topic is that many of the names of
those that survived can't be named in public, while most of those that can -
are dead. With other words: we named only those we could.

But, we interviewed almost 100 pilots from both sides, so there are plenty
of narratives in both books (BTW, next year also "Iranian F-14 Units in
Combat" will follow - again in Osprey's "Combat Aircraft" series).


Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585